i'm an idiot

Thread: i'm an idiot

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  1. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

    Default i'm an idiot

    after a long week of getting 3 outed, this hand almost made up for it. the chat afterwards is my favorite part.

    Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 22+1 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (2 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    (Opponent alias) (SB) (t1395)
    DefDumbAndBlind (BB) (t1605)

    DefDumbAndBlind's M: 35.67

    Preflop: DefDumbAndBlind is BB with 4, 9
    (Opponent alias) bets t90, DefDumbAndBlind calls t60

    Flop: (t180) K, 9, 9 (2 players)
    DefDumbAndBlind checks, (Opponent alias) bets t180, DefDumbAndBlind calls t180

    Turn: (t540) 7 (2 players)
    DefDumbAndBlind checks, (Opponent alias) bets t480, DefDumbAndBlind calls t480

    River: (t1500) 3 (2 players)
    DefDumbAndBlind checks, (Opponent alias) bets t645 (All-In), DefDumbAndBlind calls t645

    Total pot: t2790

    Results:
    (Opponent alias) had K, A (two pair, Kings and nines).
    DefDumbAndBlind had 4, 9 (three of a kind, nines).
    Outcome: DefDumbAndBlind won t2790

    DefDumbAndBlind: gg
    TheyreSoYung420: your an idiot
    DefDumbAndBlind: how am i an idiot?
    TheyreSoYung420: call with 94
    DefDumbAndBlind: i'm an idiot because i put 60 chips in the pot with the worst hand?
    TheyreSoYung420: idiot
    DefDumbAndBlind: so what's that make you for putting 1300 chips in with the worst hand?
    TheyreSoYung420: %&#@ you
    DefDumbAndBlind: no thanks
    TheyreSoYung420: idiot
    DefDumbAndBlind: ty gg
  2. RAW_FORCE said:

    Default

    Super standard hand. You could have just as easily had A9 K9 T9 etc. I like c/c the whole way down. He can never justifiably check back AK on the river without a history but if you raise at some point MAYBE he would fold it. wp
  3. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

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    i wanted him to think i was on the flush draw. the last bet was the only big mistake he made. he should have known he was only getting called by a 9.

    i just now sharkscoped him. and the results are about what i expected.

    Last edited by DeadBabySoup; 2nd August 2009 at 10:15 PM.
  4. RAW_FORCE said:

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    Yea but if he got the first deposit bonus and has rakeback then he is probably up!!!
  5. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

    Default

    sometimes it pays to play like a donk. stupid bluff on my part. horrible call by him.

    Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 80/160 Blinds (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    CO (t8290)
    Button (t4050)
    SB (t5885)
    DefDumbAndBlind (BB) (t6685)
    UTG (t6120)
    UTG+1 (t1760)
    MP1 (t9906)
    MP2 (t3839)
    MP3 (t1000)

    DefDumbAndBlind's M: 27.85

    Preflop: DefDumbAndBlind is BB with 3, A
    UTG bets t320, 7 folds, DefDumbAndBlind calls t160

    Flop: (t720) 9, 3, K (2 players)
    DefDumbAndBlind checks, UTG bets t160, DefDumbAndBlind calls t160

    Turn: (t1040) 2 (2 players)
    DefDumbAndBlind checks, UTG bets t1040, DefDumbAndBlind raises to t6205 (All-In), UTG calls t4600 (All-In)

    River: (t12320) 10 (2 players, 2 all-in)

    Total pot: t12320
  6. Machine_7's Avatar

    Machine_7 said:

    Default

    hand results you kamikaze?
    "If I had eight hours to chop down a cherry tree, I'd spend six hours sharpening my ax" - Abe Lincoln
  7. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

    Default

    crap. i'll try to find it in my hand history. he called with AJ, no draw of any kind. i knocked him out.
  8. Machine_7's Avatar

    Machine_7 said:

    Default

    Actually your read was probably good. Why would he bet so much unless he flopped a low flush? If had the nuts he is checking. Still crazy though on your part.
    "If I had eight hours to chop down a cherry tree, I'd spend six hours sharpening my ax" - Abe Lincoln
  9. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

    Default

    i thought he had a flush draw. and figured he'd fold with only the river to come.

    i just finished that tournament. got 4th for $144.
  10. Machine_7's Avatar

    Machine_7 said:

    Default

    You should have heard the chatter after this hand... he told me he had pocket 9's.

    Stage #1812147300 Tourney ID 4052699 Holdem Single Tournament No Limit 30 - 2009-08-04 02:01:30 (ET)
    Table: 30582843 (Real Money) Seat #4 is the dealer
    Seat 4 - SOUTHBAY333 (1,930 in chips)
    Seat 6 - I_AM_PRETTY (1,070 in chips)
    SOUTHBAY333 - Posts small blind 15
    I_AM_PRETTY - Posts big blind 30
    *** POCKET CARDS ***
    Dealt to I_AM_PRETTY [8c As]
    SOUTHBAY333 - Calls 15
    I_AM_PRETTY - Raises 30 to 60
    SOUTHBAY333 - Calls 30
    *** FLOP *** [10h 4d 7h]
    I_AM_PRETTY - Checks
    SOUTHBAY333 - Bets 30
    I_AM_PRETTY - Calls 30
    *** TURN *** [10h 4d 7h] [8d]
    I_AM_PRETTY - Checks
    SOUTHBAY333 - Bets 180
    I_AM_PRETTY - Calls 180
    *** RIVER *** [10h 4d 7h 8d] [8s]
    I_AM_PRETTY - Checks
    SOUTHBAY333 - Checks
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    I_AM_PRETTY - Shows [8c As] (Three of a kind, eights)
    SOUTHBAY333 - Mucks
    I_AM_PRETTY Collects 540 from main pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    "If I had eight hours to chop down a cherry tree, I'd spend six hours sharpening my ax" - Abe Lincoln
  11. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

    Default

    i'll file this one under i'm an idiot. simply because i was playing over my bankroll. other than that, i think i played it pretty well

    Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 57.5 Tournament, 20/40 Blinds (2 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    DirtyDrewJ5 (SB) (t950)
    DefDumbAndBlind (BB) (t2050)

    DefDumbAndBlind's M: 34.17

    Preflop: DefDumbAndBlind is BB with 3, 2
    DirtyDrewJ5 bets t80, DefDumbAndBlind calls t40

    Flop: (t160) J, 4, 5 (2 players)
    DefDumbAndBlind checks, DirtyDrewJ5 bets t80, DefDumbAndBlind calls t80

    Turn: (t320) A (2 players)
    DefDumbAndBlind checks, DirtyDrewJ5 bets t200, DefDumbAndBlind raises to t920, DirtyDrewJ5 calls t590 (All-In)

    River: (t1900) 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

    Total pot: t1900

    Results:
    DirtyDrewJ5 had J, A (two pair, Aces and Jacks).
    DefDumbAndBlind had 3, 2 (straight, six high).
    Outcome: DefDumbAndBlind won t1900
  12. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    I don't think I've once won while playing over my bankroll, whether I played good or bad. Consider yourself lucky that you are able to.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  13. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

    Default

    i have a bad habit of playing over my limit when i suffer a few bad beats. i'll take out my frustration heads up. i'll start within my bankroll at $6. but tend to go up if i run into more bad beats. just before i played this one, i lost a $22 heads up with AK vs A9 all in pre. so i played a $55. i was lucky to run into this guy. i don't think he could have played his hand much worse.

  14. Machine_7's Avatar

    Machine_7 said:

    Default

    Few months back I lost two $5 head's up horribly, so doubled down to a $10. Lost that one in similar fashion, doubled to $20. Got sucked out... Tried a $50. Ditto... horrible beat.

    Put in my last $100 for my last shot at it, and played the guy like I was on rabies. I destroyed him and got my money back! ; )
    "If I had eight hours to chop down a cherry tree, I'd spend six hours sharpening my ax" - Abe Lincoln
  15. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

    Default

    it's hands like this that do it to me. second hand of the final table. i should have taken first. but of course i'm the first one gone.

    Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 3.3 Tournament, 1200/2400 Blinds 300 Ante (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    CO (t41110)
    Button (t11520)
    DefDumbAndBlind (SB) (t16930)
    BB (t34990)
    typical full tilt idiot (UTG) (t24880)
    UTG+1 (t19590)
    MP1 (t37075)
    MP2 (t48225)
    MP3 (t35680)

    DefDumbAndBlind's M: 2.69

    Preflop: DefDumbAndBlind is SB with K, K
    typical full tilt idiot bets t11100, 6 folds, DefDumbAndBlind calls t9900, 1 fold

    Flop: (t27300) J, 4, 2 (2 players)
    DefDumbAndBlind bets t5530 (All-In), typical full tilt idiot calls t5530

    Turn: (t38360) 10 (2 players, 1 all-in)

    River: (t38360) A (2 players, 1 all-in)

    Total pot: t38360

    Results:
    DefDumbAndBlind had K, K (one pair, Kings).
    typical full tilt idiot had 10, A (two pair, Aces and tens).
    Outcome: typical full tilt idiot won t38360
  16. Machine_7's Avatar

    Machine_7 said:

    Default

    Must I say it again???

    RIGGED!
    "If I had eight hours to chop down a cherry tree, I'd spend six hours sharpening my ax" - Abe Lincoln
  17. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

    Default

    it's to the point that i expect to lose unless i have them drawing dead. i don't even want to know how much money i've lost to 3 outers.
  18. phaul said:

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadBabySoup View Post
    so i played a $55. i was lucky to run into this guy. i don't think he could have played his hand much worse.
    Are you genuinely burning this guy for shipping top 2 in for 24 BBs HU? Fine, his bet sizing is awful, but seriously?
  19. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by phaul View Post
    Are you genuinely burning this guy for shipping top 2 in for 24 BBs HU? Fine, his bet sizing is awful, but seriously?
    min raise before the flop with AJ. min bet after the flop with top pair top kicker. but obvious flush and straight draws. then calling a check raise all in with 4 outs. whether i had a straight or a flush, it should have been fairly obvious he had 4 outs. so yes, i think he played it pretty bad.
  20. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadBabySoup View Post
    min raise before the flop with AJ. min bet after the flop with top pair top kicker. but obvious flush and straight draws. then calling a check raise all in with 4 outs. whether i had a straight or a flush, it should have been fairly obvious he had 4 outs. so yes, i think he played it pretty bad.
    He didn't minbet the flop, he half potted. And if he folds that turn after you shove, he is lol bad. It's a good turn to bluff on, you'll push with any A, and you could be semi-bluffing. He's lighting money on fire if he folds. It's obvious what you have when you're the one playing your hand.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  21. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

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    80 chips is as good as a min bet there. for that price, any draw is calling. i'll say it again, i don't think he could have played it much worse. if he had 3 bet pre flop, i might have folded. but even if i had called, that would have made the pot 240 chips. if he bets pot on the flop, i'm not calling with a straight draw and no spade. basically, he tried to trap me in an obviously dangerous situation. and let me hit my draw for cheap. that's not smart poker.
  22. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadBabySoup View Post
    if he had 3 bet pre flop, i might have folded.
    How on Earth is he going to 3bet you pf in that hand when he raises you on the button? It's not humanly possible to 3bet you in that spot. Do you know what 3bet means? Plus, he borderline priced you out on the flop, and you still called. I really don't think he played it that badly.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  23. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

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    i meant to say if he'd bet 3 times bb. but i think you know what i meant. basically, he made a mistake every chance he had. he under bet preflop. under bet the flop. then called off all his chips once he was beat. there are times to trap. but you don't trap against a potential flush and straight. play it strong. or don't play it at all.
  24. phaul said:

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadBabySoup View Post
    min raise before the flop with AJ. min bet after the flop with top pair top kicker. but obvious flush and straight draws. then calling a check raise all in with 4 outs. whether i had a straight or a flush, it should have been fairly obvious he had 4 outs. so yes, i think he played it pretty bad.
    Are you seriously saying he should fold the turn? And that you don't have anything in your range that top 2 beats? Also, minraising pre isn't too terrible, if he knows you're calling w/ ATC then he's just bloating the pot IP with his range ahead of yours. And that can't be too bad a thing. Also, how many fds are you considering as having value on the flop? There's a lot of RIO involved there. The flop bet is small, but not disastrous. The hand as a whole really isn't lolbad.
  25. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

    Default

    personally, i would never try to trap with both a flush and straight showing. but i'm also not $6,500 in the hole with a -23% roi. realistically, the only hand he beats there is a bluff.
  26. phaul said:

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadBabySoup View Post
    it's hands like this that do it to me. second hand of the final table. i should have taken first. but of course i'm the first one gone.

    Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 3.3 Tournament, 1200/2400 Blinds 300 Ante (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    CO (t41110)
    Button (t11520)
    DefDumbAndBlind (SB) (t16930)
    BB (t34990)
    typical full tilt idiot (UTG) (t24880)
    UTG+1 (t19590)
    MP1 (t37075)
    MP2 (t48225)
    MP3 (t35680)

    DefDumbAndBlind's M: 2.69

    Preflop: DefDumbAndBlind is SB with K, K
    typical full tilt idiot bets t11100, 6 folds, DefDumbAndBlind calls t9900, 1 fold

    Flop: (t27300) J, 4, 2 (2 players)
    DefDumbAndBlind bets t5530 (All-In), typical full tilt idiot calls t5530

    Turn: (t38360) 10 (2 players, 1 all-in)

    River: (t38360) A (2 players, 1 all-in)

    Total pot: t38360

    Results:
    DefDumbAndBlind had K, K (one pair, Kings).
    typical full tilt idiot had 10, A (two pair, Aces and tens).
    Outcome: typical full tilt idiot won t38360
    He should've shoved pre, when he flatted you should've shipped over the top. His flop decision is meh, arguments can be made either way, I may call in his spot. It was effectively all-in pre, so you basically lost a 70-30. And why exactly should you have taken first? Winning that would've put you at slightly over average stack!
  27. phaul said:

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadBabySoup View Post
    personally, i would never try to trap with both a flush and straight showing. but i'm also not $6,500 in the hole with a -23% roi. realistically, the only hand he beats there is a bluff.
    I'm not considering the straight too much And he didn't try to trap, he just bet-sized poorly. Also, read Travz's post earlier re hands he beats.

    He almost certainly has big leaks, but I doubt this is where he's losing all his money. He's also playing MUCH larger stakes than you, so he could actually be a lot better than you.

    Shit, didn't mean to edit this, just went into it to get the double-quote (see page 4).
    Last edited by phaul; 14th August 2009 at 01:14 AM.
  28. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by phaul View Post
    He should've shoved pre, when he flatted you should've shipped over the top. His flop decision is meh, arguments can be made either way, I may call in his spot. It was effectively all-in pre, so you basically lost a 70-30. And why exactly should you have taken first? Winning that would've put you at slightly over average stack!
    i can usually see some merit in your hand analysis. but you are way off here. he should have shoved preflop UTG with AT? only if he wants to donk out. he should have limped and folded to a raise. or at the most, bet 3x bb. and folded to a raise. he was out of position and overplayed his hand horribly then got lucky.

    it seems to me you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. because if you're seriously suggesting shoving with AT UTG is a good move, your opinion isn't doing anyone any good.
    Last edited by DeadBabySoup; 13th August 2009 at 04:07 AM.
  29. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by phaul View Post
    I'm not considering the straight too much And he didn't try to trap, he just bet-sized poorly. Also, read Travz's post earlier re hands he beats.

    He almost certainly has big leaks, but I doubt this is where he's losing all his money. He's also playing MUCH larger stakes than you, so he could actually be a lot better than you.
    yes, he's playing bigger stakes. from the look of things, he's playing way over his skill level. maybe he has money to burn. i hope so. because he's doing a good job of it.
  30. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadBabySoup View Post
    i can usually see some merit in your hand analysis. but you are way off here. he should have shoved preflop UTG with AT? only if he wants to donk out. he should have limped and folded to a raise. or at the most, bet 3x bb. and folded to a raise. he was out of position and overplayed his hand horribly then got lucky.

    it seems to me you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. because if you're seriously suggesting shoving with AT UTG is a good move, your opinion isn't doing anyone any good.
    He should have simply folded UTG with ATs. Limping is worse than shoving. Your flat call pf with KK is utterly disgusting. He's calling with any two when you reship his raise pf. When you flat pf, you give him a chance to fold post flop and get away from the hand. I really cannot understand how you play some hands the way you do and your reasoning behind it.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  31. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by travz21 View Post
    He should have simply folded UTG with ATs. Limping is worse than shoving. Your flat call pf with KK is utterly disgusting. He's calling with any two when you reship his raise pf. When you flat pf, you give him a chance to fold post flop and get away from the hand. I really cannot understand how you play some hands the way you do and your reasoning behind it.
    you might want to read what you write before you post it. and ask yourself, does this make any sense? first you say he's calling with any 2 cards. then you say i gave him a chance to get away from his hand. there's a contradiction there. get back to me when you figure it out
  32. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    You just misunderstood what I wrote, that's all. By flatting pf, you give him a chance to get away from the hand post flop. On the flip side, if you reshove his pf raise, he's calling you with any two cards pf, getting full value out of your monster. As is turned out, either play wouldn't have mattered. It's just something you should think about for future hands.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  33. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

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    you usually you don't want to flat pre flop with AA or KK because you don't want multiple callers. but with him raising 10x bb and everyone folding to me in the sb, i effectively had him heads up. by flat calling, i gave him 3 cards to hit 3 outs. if i had shoved pre, he's calling and he has 5 cards to suck out. if an ace hits the flop, i can fold and have enough chips on the button to comeback. if not, i'm confident i can get the rest of his chips in the pot with less than half the chance of winning the hand that he had preflop.
  34. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    That post is the definition of "lol bad". First of all, he raised around 4.5xbb, not 10x. That's pretty trivial though, which I don't care about. The rest of the post I literally laughed out loud from. I want somebody else to chime in on this logic, because I feel like it might sound like I'm picking a fight with you, when I'm not trying to at all.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  35. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

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    i don't care if you're trying to pick a fight or not. a lot of your posts are negative and personal. which is why i ignore them except when you're speaking to me. even then, i try to ignore your attitude.

    you post a lot of opinions, some are good, some are bad. saying it's better to shove with AT suited than to limp is just plain bad. but i don't bother telling you that. because when people make things personal, they're not interested in hearing another point of view. they simply want to win an argument. you'd be better served to remember that your opinions are opinions. and lay off the insults when other player's opinions aren't the same as yours.

    just my opinion
  36. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    I haven't really given opinions. Some plays are more optimal than others, and I've stated them. I wasn't making it personal, so don't act like I did so you can try to take the "big man" route with this thread. We're talking about poker, there's nothing personal about it.

    On this forum, when I'm trying to talk poker logic with people and I present something that trumps their view, they tend to beat around the bush and call me negative or think I'm getting personal with them. Having said that, I don't think you've provided a counter to any of the points me or phaul have given.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  37. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

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    when you say it's better to shove than limp UTG with ATs, that's an opinion. it's not optimal strategy.

    and you have a habit of insulting people when you disagree with them. there's really no need for it.



    as for the discussions at hand, you have never countered the reason why i thought the first guy misplayed his hand. he slow played with both flush and straight possibilities. it's a mistake to try to trap with that flop. paul admits that he under bet it. but doesn't agree that was a major mistake. considering it cost him the rest of his chips, i think it was.

    i don't even know why he brought up the second hand except to argue. if you read his post, he didn't even read the hand right. and to come out and say he should have shoved with that hand is flat out wrong in my opinion.
  38. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    People have a habit of skimming over crucial parts of my posts, so no worries. I never said he should shove with ATs in that given situation. I said he should open fold, but shoving>limping.

    I've given plenty of other counters. Reread my posts.

    And obv Mr. AJo underbet the flop after minraising pf, but maybe he was trying to induce a spaz on the flop or turn. That would make his turn fold even worse, if in fact he folded. Once again, he borderline priced you out on the flop with your tainted open ender on a flushed flop. I think it was just a poorly played poker hand overall.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  39. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

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    you just repeated a questionable opinion. you keep saying it's better to shove than to limp with ATs. but you give no logic to support that opinion. if he were to shove, he's only getting called if he's crushed. if he limps, he can get away from it if he's beat.

    regarding the other hand, you still haven't explained how under betting against potential flush and straight draws isn't a major mistake. saying he might have been "trying to induce a spaz" is just another was of saying he was trying to trap a donk. personally, i don't think he even saw the straight draw. regardless, that's not board where you trap.
  40. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    I already said he should open fold ATs in that situation. Why should I explain each progressively worse option thereafter?

    Underbetting and trapping are two totally different things. Your use of the word trap is getting annoying, since you don't trap people by putting more money into the pot. I don't know what he was thinking, I was just saying he could have been trying to induce a bluff with his underbets. He definitely was not trapping by betting. His all in turn call was better than your flop call, let's put it that way. What were you hoping to hit? A non-spade straight card and just pray he ships you his money? Again, you were borderline priced out and had very little implied odds.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  41. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

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    you can't explain why raising all in would be better than limping. because it's not.

    and you don't have to check to slowplay. betting your hand weak is a form of slowplaying too. it should be common sense not to slowplay when there's a strong chance a free or cheap card could beat you. which is the case with potential flush and straight draws on the flop.
  42. phaul said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadBabySoup View Post
    i can usually see some merit in your hand analysis. but you are way off here. he should have shoved preflop UTG with AT? only if he wants to donk out. he should have limped and folded to a raise. or at the most, bet 3x bb. and folded to a raise. he was out of position and overplayed his hand horribly then got lucky.

    it seems to me you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. because if you're seriously suggesting shoving with AT UTG is a good move, your opinion isn't doing anyone any good.
    He has an M of 3.95. So I'm assuming something like 8BBs. The blinds are about to go through him, and he can pick up a pot which is a huge % of his stack. Shoving there is fine. Would need to know exactly how big the blinds and antes are to be 100% though. Either way, it's not lolbad as you suggest.

    I'll read the rest of this thread later when I have more time. But limping UTG 9-handed for 12.5% of your stack is horrific. 3x/folding is even worse. That's pretty much the definition of lolbad.
  43. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by phaul View Post
    He has an M of 3.95. So I'm assuming something like 8BBs. The blinds are about to go through him, and he can pick up a pot which is a huge % of his stack. Shoving there is fine. Would need to know exactly how big the blinds and antes are to be 100% though. Either way, it's not lolbad as you suggest.

    I'll read the rest of this thread later when I have more time. But limping UTG 9-handed for 12.5% of your stack is horrific. 3x/folding is even worse. That's pretty much the definition of lolbad.
    shoving under the gun with AT is the worst possible move he could make. any hand that calls him has him crushed. and with 8 players to act, there's a strong chance someone does have him crushed. ideally, you'd want to see a flop with a few more limpers with that hand. get lucky and take down a huge pot. but risking your entire stack when you're near average is horrible.
  44. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    He had 10bb's UTG. If there's a "strong chance" someone has you beat, then there's no way you should be limping for 10% of your stack either. And we both know if someone has you beat, it doesn't mean they will call. Calling off with ATs is much worse than pushing with ATs obv. He can push and win a pot of 6.3k (25% of his stack) a lot of the time. You make it sound like someone's always going to wake up with TT-AA or AK. So essentially you're bluffing, since you'll only get called by better. However, if you pushed every time in this spot in a vacuum, I think you'd have to have around a 70% steal rate to make this move +chipEV. Anyone feel like doing some maths instead of trying to do it in their head like me? Still think fold's the best option, though I'm starting to think shove is closer to fold than I thought.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  45. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

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    when you shove with AT there, you're getting called by AK, AQ, possibly even AJ. AA, KK, QQ, JJ and probably TT. so there are too many hands that have you crushed to risk your entire stack that early at the final table. folding is fine too. but so is limping. when someone limps under the gun, that often means they have a stronger hand than if they had raised. this late in the tournament, people will limp with aces or kings or ace king under the gun. so you're probably not going to get raised by a marginal hand. and like i said, you would like to see a flop with 4 or 5 other players. that's the ideal situation for suited connectors. but you sure as hell don't want to be all in pre flop with that hand.

    as for the actual math, ATs has an EV of .31. with anything less than an EV of 1, you're going to lose most of the time. so shoving when you're most likely going to lose is a donk play in my opinion. but maybe that's just me
  46. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    Ummmmmmmmmm, no. Anyone else want to give some input?

    And if AQ is in someone's range here, TT is definitely in there too. And how are you getting your EV numbers? I think what you basically told me is you need a 69% steal rate for this to be break even territory.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  47. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

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    .31 is the EV for ATs as a starting hand. look it up. but seriously, take a second and listen to yourself. you're trying to argue that bluffing all in from under the gun is an acceptable play. that's possibly the worst advice you could give anyone. if he were on the button and it had folded around to him, then it's fine to shove. but shoving under the gun with that is donk poker 101.
  48. C8H10N4O2 said:

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    I feel like limping UTG with AT with a 10bb stack is donk poker 101 as well.

    I'll add to this...

    I just can't see how you can play AT from UTG with a 10BB stack as weakly as limp-folding it. Limp-folding seems like such a weak-tight play with only 10BB's since it counts for 10% of your stack. I think folding is way more optimal than limp-folding here. Not sure about shoving it, but I think limp-folding is the worst decision, so even if it is a shove-bluff, I think shove-bluffing with it is more optimal than limp-folding. I also think shipping KK back over the top pre-flop is pretty much a given. Are you planning on folding your KK with a stack size of 5,530 when the pot is sitting at 33k effectively leaving you with <2BB's if an A hits on the flop? I agree with phaul on this one. You were both pretty much all-in pre-flop.
  49. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadBabySoup View Post
    .31 is the EV for ATs as a starting hand. look it up. but seriously, take a second and listen to yourself. you're trying to argue that bluffing all in from under the gun is an acceptable play. that's possibly the worst advice you could give anyone. if he were on the button and it had folded around to him, then it's fine to shove. but shoving under the gun with that is donk poker 101.
    K, I don't think you're understanding the somewhat in depth concept I was getting at. Phaul, where are you?
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  50. DeadBabySoup's Avatar

    DeadBabySoup said:

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    arguing back and forth isn't accomplishing anything. so i'll simply post a couple links that support my points.

    Slow playing (also called sandbagging or trapping) is deceptive play in poker that is roughly the opposite of bluffing: betting weakly or passively with a strong holding rather than betting aggressively with a weak one.

    David Sklansky defines the following conditions for profitable slow plays:[1]
    A player must have a very strong hand.

    The free card or cheap card the player is allowing to his opponents must have good possibilities of making them a second-best hand.

    That same free card must have little chance of giving an opponent a better hand or even giving them a draw to a better hand on the next round with sufficient pot odds to justify a call.

    The player must believe that he will drive out opponents by showing aggression, but can win a big pot if the opponents stay in the pot.
    The pot must not yet be very large.



    with both straight and flush draws showing, there was a strong chance of me making a better hand. so betting weak was a mistake.


    No Limit Holdem Tournament - Stealing Under the Gun

    March 25, 2008

    By Smith Collins
    Bodog Nation Contributing Writer

    One of the least talked about yet most effective plays you can make late in a No Limit Holdem tournament is without a doubt the "under the gun" steal.

    As many of you already know, "under the gun" means that you are the first person to act pre-flop on any given hand, and normally, you need an extremely strong hand to be playing from this position. The theory in most conventional poker books that tell you to play your position carefully is that not only will you be out of position for the entire hand if someone chooses to call your raise, but there is a good chance of being reraised with seven or eight people left to act behind you.

    With all of these unfavorable possibilities, you would assume that it is very dangerous to play a hand from here and very easy to tell if someone has a good hand just by the mere fact that they didn't fold their cards. This is the mentality that everyone in the poker community has, which is why stealing from this position is such a great move and goes completely undetected. However, like most great moves, you have to use some guidelines when applying it so that you don't get too carried away and become obvious.

    Having a tight image will help you steal effectively. The first guideline is that you should always be in the antes stage of the tournament when trying to pull this off, because otherwise, the pots just aren't worth stealing and you are better off using this rare move when the pots matter the most later on in the game.

    The second guideline is that you should have a tight image and you should not have shown down a bad hand recently. This helps credit the fact that you have what you are representing.

    The third guideline is that you should always be at a table with as close to six or seven players as possible, since this still creates the "under-the-gun" effect when you raise and leaves you with less people that you have to get to fold their hand.


    Stealing under the gun should be done at a table with close to six or seven players.The final guideline is that you should make sure that you have at least 20 big blinds so you can fold if you get reraised without it affecting your stack, and that if you have a weak hand, you are not forced to call anyone else's all-in at the table because of pot odds once you make your under-the-gun raise. Another good reason for leaving yourself at least 20 big blinds is that when somebody flat calls your raise pre-flop, you can throw out a strong looking continuation bet on the flop that almost never gets any resistance as long as you have enough chips to make it look like you aren't desperate to win that pot.

    This move definitely has positive expected value when used under these guidelines, and I hope everyone who reads this goes to the table and tries it out.


    this was the second hand of the final table so he had no table image.

    there were too many people left to act to risk making a move.

    and most importantly, he did not have enough chips to make a move.

    so anyway, that's two professional players stating the same things i have said. if you can post a credible source that says differently, i'd love to see it. if not, it's been fun. have a nice day