Hi there,

I'm fairly new to PLO but I like the action better than at NLHE. I'm still learning the shenanigans of the game so please bear with me.

Anyway, here's the hand I wanted to discuss with you :

Hero is at seat 0 with $9.80.
amelia99 is at seat 1 with $10.
nitro.it is at seat 2 with $2.34.
bigster10 is at seat 3 with $10.
HSVole is at seat 4 with $10.78.
Dartplayer is at seat 5 with $6.93.

The dealer is seat 5.

Hero posts a blind of $.05.
amelia99 posts a blind of $.10.
bigster10 doesn't post a blind.

Hero is dealt Ad Js Ac Kd.

Pre-flop:
nitro.it calls for $.10.
HSVole calls for $.10.
Dartplayer calls for $.10.
Hero raises $.50.
amelia99 raises $1.50.
nitro.it folds.
HSVole folds.
Dartplayer calls for $2.
Hero raises $6.50.
amelia99 folds.
Dartplayer goes all-in for $4.83.
$1.67 is pushed back to Hero

Well, Dartplayer wasn't really active at the table, got involved in some small pots but I don't have a HUD so I can't give you numbers/stats.

From what I've read, AAxx isn't as pretty as in NLHE but AAKJ with AK sooooooooted looked good enough here to push him all-in...

Was that the right move ? What range does villain have ? I'll show results after a little discussion.

Thanks for your comments and advices.

yea you played correct. AAKJ single suited heads up is always a good hand to be all in with.

with the pot what it is, he should be calling you with any four cards that would have flat called the previous raise.

any hand with out a pair is correct to call you. the only hands that should fold are hands with a pair and cards that dont work together. so a hand like jj27 rainbow should be folding. even a hand as bad as 258T rainbow would be correct to call at this point.

Okay, here's the end of the hand since there isn't much to discuss. Well, I'm sorry for not understanding there wasn't much to discuss in the first place.


Showdown:

Hero shows: Ad Js Ac Kd

Dartplayer shows: 8d As 10s 8s

The flop comes 6d 7h Jh.
The turn comes Jc.
The river comes 9d.

Hero shows: Ad Js Ac Kd
Jh Jc Js Ad 9d
Three Jacks

Dartplayer shows: 8d As 10s 8s
Jh 10s 9d 8d 7h
Straight, Jack high

Dartplayer wins pot ($15.16).


Anyways, I was happy to see him turning over 8d As 10s 8s, a hand I can beat a fairly amount of times (someone with the odds here ?). On the other hand, was that some kind of hand that really should have called my re-raise ?? I don't feel like it was but I'm just a rookie...

After all the money went in, I guess I just got unlucky...maybe should have posted that in the Bad Beats sections

you win here about 68.5% of the time here.

call is pretty close to 0 ev depending on what your 3 bet range is.


i doubt he knows this analysis when he calls but here is the math

he needs 31.86% pot equity to make the call.

against AA** he has 31.73% pot equity.

so technically if he knows you will only 3 bet AA then he should fold. if you range includes any other hands then then he would have the correct equity to make the call.


a side not (if he gets rakeback then he has the correct equity to call even if you only 3 bet AA)


I think this hand looks good enough that given this situation live i would call your shove. (However I would not have called the big blinds reraise)

Well, thanks for the detailed response. I appreciate the odds since I have a hard time finding references on that.
I guess there's still a lot for me to learn, do you have any link for educational purposes ?

On the other hand, I have another one :

FullTiltPoker Game #14828949982: Table Air (6 max) - $0.05/$0.10 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi
Seat 1: Phluegar ($4.22)
Seat 2: 69BigZmonDogg69 ($10)
Seat 3: Hero ($7.12)
Seat 4: Mario_Paiva ($11.77)
Phluegar posts the small blind of $0.05
69BigZmonDogg69 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [4d 8h Qs Qc]
Hero calls $0.10
Mario_Paiva calls $0.10
Phluegar folds
69BigZmonDogg69 has 15 seconds left to act
69BigZmonDogg69 checks
*** FLOP *** [5c Qh Ad]
Z-manRyan sits down
69BigZmonDogg69 has 15 seconds left to act
69BigZmonDogg69 checks
Z-manRyan adds $10
CallifyouDare checks
Mario_Paiva bets $0.35
harrygittyup sits down
harrygittyup adds $4
69BigZmonDogg69 folds
69BigZmonDogg69 adds $0.10
Z-manRyan is sitting out
Hero raises to $0.90
Mario_Paiva calls $0.55

Even though it's Omaha, I'm personally not a big fan of the limp preflop. You're trying to make a set of Q's or hit a fluke hand with the 48 and getting paid of big. The best way to build a pot is to play one that is raised preflop.

Postflop I think you should raise bigger. Effective stacks are big enough to raise to 1.30-ish, raise 2/3 to pot on turn and be properly leveraged to ship river.

As played you're gonna have a hard time getting the stacks in (which is what you want at 10PLO with middle set imo).

Hope i helped!

Oh and also: reload preflop.

Hi,

First, I'm not auto-reloading to max because I find it hard to keep up with the eventual profits/losses. I like getting a full buy-in then reload later, if I get under half of the buy-in (in this case under $5).

Also, I'm not a big fan of raising a pair and 2 unconnected cards PF but I guess I should raise it once in a while.

On the flop I'm clearly raising to extract some value out of the hand, and with the texture of the flop, the only hands I don't like are straight draws like KJxx or 24xx. Of course, 24xx could have been pushed out of the flop had I raised PF which rebounds on your comment.

Please remember that I'm still learning (meaning I'm the fish !) so I don't know what are the "standard" actions here. Anyways, thanks for your helpful comment. I'll be posting the end of the hand soon.

Originally Posted by chiudidier

Also, I'm not a big fan of raising a pair and 2 unconnected cards PF but I guess I should raise it once in a while.

this is good thinking. Im glad you think that this is not a very good hand and you are right it isnt a very good hand.

The thing is though you are playing 4 handed and you are under the gun. I think you should be raising or folding in this situation with any four cards. therefore here i would raise. if you were playing 9 or 6 handed in late position and had a few callers then i like the limp with that hand. If you are playing full ring in early position i would even recommend folding a hand like this.

As for the flop you should be leading the flop with a full pot sized bet, this isnt really a check raise hand as you are out of position and there aren't to many turn cards that you will like. also by checking the player behind you could check and then you could be giving gut shot strait draws that may have folded a free card or loosing value if they were silly and called with a gut shot straight on that board.

by check raising you will prolly cause hands you have dominated to fold while the wrap draws will still be calling and then putting there money in if they beat you.

Originally Posted by thegrizz1111

this is good thinking. Im glad you think that this is not a very good hand and you are right it isnt a very good hand.

Well I'm happy to see it's good thinking Don't wanna be the total newbie here.

Originally Posted by thegrizz1111

The thing is though you are playing 4 handed and you are under the gun. I think you should be raising or folding in this situation with any four cards. therefore here i would raise. if you were playing 9 or 6 handed in late position and had a few callers then i like the limp with that hand. If you are playing full ring in early position i would even recommend folding a hand like this.

Such a great analysis. I need to get rid of my bad habit of limping instead of raising...I have an awfully low percentage of PF raises...

If I raise PF and get reraised I can easily fold right ?
If I raise PF and 2 or more people call me and I don't hit anything it's an easy check/fold right ?

Originally Posted by thegrizz1111

As for the flop you should be leading the flop with a full pot sized bet, this isnt really a check raise hand as you are out of position and there aren't to many turn cards that you will like. also by checking the player behind you could check and then you could be giving gut shot strait draws that may have folded a free card or loosing value if they were silly and called with a gut shot straight on that board.

by check raising you will prolly cause hands you have dominated to fold while the wrap draws will still be calling and then putting there money in if they beat you.

I know check raising has its flaws, especially in a pot where everyone has limped, but is it that bad to try to get more value ?

For the bolded part, I just wish I had read your reply earlier... I was involved in a similar hand with top set on the flop I check raised, the guy called and turned the nut straight. And of course, I had to pot bet that turn...

Anyway, thanks to both of you, so far, I feel like I've learned a lot.
For the sake of the discussion, here's another chunk of the hand :


*** TURN *** [5c Qh Ad] [4s]
Hero bets $0.90
Mario_Paiva calls $0.90


I can already hear you saying I should bet more, but I was in a "extract value" type of reasoning...was I too greedy ?

Originally Posted by chiudidier

If I raise PF and get reraised I can easily fold right ?
If I raise PF and 2 or more people call me and I don't hit anything it's an easy check/fold right ?

as for the getting reraised

if the button (because he has position on you the rest of the hand) or the small bind (because he is short stacked) reraises you then you can easily fold. If the big blind raises you it is a bit more tricky. If you have some info on him then you may want to call the bet. If he is the kind of player who will only 3 bet aces then you can call. If he can never fold his aces then you are obviously hoping to hit a queen on the flop without an ace and get your money in. If he is the type of player who needs to improve his aces to get to showdown, then you are calling and in hopes that you can bluff this pot at some point later in the hand. if his reraise range is bigger than aa you may still want to call but what to do next is complicated.

(since you are just starting out maybe you dont want to call too often but it would help to try it a few times and see how it works.) Some of you biggest profits in omaha will come from beating players who cant fold unimproved aces. And the second concept of calling bets in position with the intent of bluffing later (floating) is an important skill for an omaha player to have (although i dont know how effective it will be at .05/.1 I imagine there will be tables where you will never want to do this but will prolly be some tables where it can be used)

As for the two callers check/fold depends.

if someone bets its a fold.
if an ace hits you can continuation bet. (alot of players at this level only raise AA, therefore they assume when someone raises they most likely have AA)
if the calls are in front of you and everyone checks you can c-bet or check. if you do check and everyone checks a second time you need to bet it.

as far as what to do if your first c-bet gets called there are way to many factors to even begin typing about it. (what to do next will come with experience)

Originally Posted by chiudidier

I know check raising has its flaws, especially in a pot where everyone has limped, but is it that bad to try to get more value ?

my opinion is yes. one because there is a possibilty of no bets and you giving a free card to hands such as gut shot straights and two because in omaha postion is very important so if you are check raising for value you are building a big pot which you will be playing out of postion. middle set is a very difficult hand to play heads up out of position with that board and a large pot.

It's been a week since we last talked about PLO here. I've been trying to put into application all that was discussed here and the outcome were quite positive. I've yet to beat the level but at least I started to lose less money if at all. Thanks again thegrizz1111.

Just for the sake of it, here's the end of the hand :

*** RIVER *** [5c Qh Ad 4s] [5s]
Hero bets $1.80
Mario_Paiva raises to $9.35
Hero calls $3.42, and is all in
Uncalled bet of $4.13 returned to Mario_Paiva

*** SHOW DOWN ***
Mario_Paiva shows [Jd 5h 5d 9s] four of a kind, Fives

welll i have been traveling this weeked so i have been reading jeff hwang's advanced pot limit omaha while on airplanes and i read a few parts that deal with what you were asking about.

The first is on check raising. It says there are basically two types of check raises, planned and improvised. when doing a planned check raise you should have some reason to believe that the person behind you is going to bet. (like he always bets when he is checked to on the button, or because he raised preflop). I dont think you really had any reason to believe this person would bet so it you case you wouldnt want to risk giving up a free card. luckly he just happend to have bottom set.

As for the how to play it preflop. He actually talks about hands you should be raising with short-handed. And for how i interpreted the section, it seems as though the book would agree with your limp in that situation. he talks about two things. one that blinds are very small in regaurds to the stacks. Two and more importantly i think is that you should have a wider range of preflop raises if you think it can get you heads up agaisnt one of the blinds. He does caution however that you should not be raising hands that you dont want to call a 3 bet with (mainly hands with a pair in them that isnt AA)