Is this just a fold?

[Silent_Ac3s]

Alright, so this table was a bit hectic. WTSFL and NOAHSARK111 were both complete maniac fish, willing to take anything at any time. I'd seen a couple hundred hands with JAYDT1124, he was running a 14/11, fairly decent player, and only liked to get it in with a real hand.

Stage #1659820461: Holdem No Limit $0.50 - 2009-09-25 17:30:25 (ET)
Table: CEDAR PL (Real Money) Seat #4 is the dealer
Seat 4 - JAYDT1124 ($72.65 in chips)
Seat 5 - TOPAZ_BLUE ($31.25 in chips)
Seat 6 - NOAHSARK111 ($22.71 in chips)
Seat 1 - SILENT_AC3S ($58.45 in chips)
Seat 2 - CAMPCONNOR ($31.48 in chips)
Seat 3 - WTSFL ($19.05 in chips)
TOPAZ_BLUE - Posts small blind $0.25
NOAHSARK111 - Posts big blind $0.50
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to SILENT_AC3S [Qd Qc]
SILENT_AC3S - Raises $1.75 to $1.75
CAMPCONNOR - Folds
WTSFL - Raises $3.50 to $3.50
JAYDT1124 - Raises $7 to $7
TOPAZ_BLUE - Folds
NOAHSARK111 - All-In(Raise) $22.21 to $22.71
SILENT_AC3S - ???

In this spot, the two fish (NOAHSARK111 and WTSFL) did not intimidate me at all, it was the min 4 bet by JAYDT that caught me off guard. Is this too early to lay down the queens?

Any call/shove from here is getting committed with JAYDT imo, and I feel I am very rarely ahead here...

[DeadBabySoup]

best case, you're a coin flip against AK. more likely, you're dominated by AA or KK. i'd fold.

[frecklers]

Not too much thought required here...Straight forward fold...

[travz21]

14/11 at a 6max? Is this guy nittiest of the nitty? If he's not in the hand I snap call this. I'd snap call if both maniacs shoved. Does JAY minraise with strong hands? At first glance I'd probably fold this, but it might be closer than it looks if you pokerstove it.

[frob23]

Yeah man, QQ here is pretty ugly. It seems like everyone and their mother wants in on this pot and is eager to play a big pot. I just don't think we have anywhere near the right odds to play here. It's hard but let it go.

[liladypokerpro]

I wouldn't even want AA in that spot... a raise, a re-raise, and a shove... easy fold imo... no way I'm getting in a possible multi-way pot with QQ... you still don't know whether the other two raisers are gonna call the all in or not... get out while the getting is good...

[C8H10N4O2]

I wouldn't even want AA in that spot... a raise, a re-raise, and a shove... easy fold imo... no way I'm getting in a possible multi-way pot with QQ... you still don't know whether the other two raisers are gonna call the all in or not... get out while the getting is good...

I'll take AA anyday in this situation at a cash table. The beauty of "RELOAD"

I agree with everyone else though, a 14/11 at 6-max min-raises against two crazy aggressive guys... feels like he's wanting to get it all in. I wouldn't snap fold, but I think I'm probably folding here too. Call me a nit, but oh well.

[liladypokerpro]

I'll take AA anyday in this situation at a cash table. The beauty of "RELOAD"

LOL sorry I guess I prefer winning versus reloading

[C8H10N4O2]

LOL sorry I guess I prefer winning versus reloading

I prefer to get as many callers all-in when I have aces as possible pre-flop... largest return on my money And if I lose, you better believe I'll be reloading at a table that gives my AA that much pre-flop action

[liladypokerpro]

I prefer to get as many callers all-in when I have aces as possible pre-flop... largest return on my money And if I lose, you better believe I'll be reloading at a table that gives my AA that much pre-flop action

The odds that AA will win in a multi-way pot against multiple combinations of other hands is not favorable... why would you want to be put in a spot where an otherwise great hand is many times more likely to be beaten? *just curious* I am curious about your thinking, and want to know more... I'm not arguing but rather I want to to understand your side of this discussion.

[C8H10N4O2]

The odds that AA will win in a multi-way pot against multiple combinations of other hands is not favorable... why would you want to be put in a spot where an otherwise great hand is many times more likely to be beaten? *just curious* I am curious about your thinking, and want to know more... I'm not arguing but rather I want to to understand your side of this discussion.

At a cash table, you are always a favorite to win in a multi-way pot compared to the other players' odds. More times than not in a multi-way pot, you will lose, but the times you do win, you'll greatly make up for the times you lose.

Take for example...

AA vs KK vs 78 vs 99 vs QJ vs 23

This pre-flop situation yields 32.01% favorite for AA. SnG world... not so great... cash table... HECK YEAH! Here is why.

For simplicity, say everyone has equal stack sizes of $100. Now you get it all-in pre-flop in this situation 100 times. 32 times you turn your $100 into $600 for a net gain of $500 each time or a grand total of $16,000 gained. Now the other 68 times, you lose $100 for a net loss of $6,800. Your total net gain in this situation is $9,200.

Now this time, let's run AA against 78. Here AA stands a 76.83% shot to win. So again we run this same thing 100 times, for a net gain of 77 wins. Here we gain $100 each time, at 77 wins for a net gain of $7,700. Now we lose $100 23 times for a loss of $2,300. This leaves us with an overall gain of $5,400.

Therefore, given both situations, over the long run, it'll be much more profitable to have AA all-in pre-flop in multi-way pots at cash tables. Sure you will lose more often... but when you win, you win so much larger that it more than makes up for it.

[travz21]

That is why tourneys suck. Ty, Dew.

[liladypokerpro]

I can see where you're coming from, I guess. I just don't like the idea of willingly putting myself in the position to lose more often than not, only to wait for that one win. If AA were a frequently occurring hand, then maybe... I just can't make myself put that much faith in any one hand in a multi-way pot, solely on the notion that it will eventually win.

[C8H10N4O2]

In the above situation it wins almost 1/3 of the time. It's not just the "eventual" win... it's the 1 out of 3 times huge win that makes it a solid play. As long as you are properly rolled, it's the best +EV play to get AA all-in pre-flop in multi-way pots. Ideally, you'd have every single person call all-in every single time at your table when you have AA. Again, it requires being properly rolled. If you are properly rolled you aren't putting yourself in a losing position at all. You are putting yourself in the highest yield situation. Run it 3 times instead of 100. Multi-way pot You lose $200, but gain $500 for a net gain of $300. HU pot, you run hot and win all three, you still only gain $300 and that requires you to "run good" while the multi-way pot situation doesn't.

[liladypokerpro]

That's all assuming, of course, that it consistently happens once out of every three times. Nothing is that perfectly predictable, but I do get what you're saying, and I appreciate the explanation very much.

[C8H10N4O2]

That's all assuming, of course, that it consistently happens once out of every three times. Nothing is that perfectly predictable

You're telling me... I've lost with AA 5 of 5 of the last times I've been dealt it when I've gotten it all-in pre-flop at $2 nl.... and only one of those was a multi-way pot

[ballboy75]

two ladies in that spot owuld be pretty treaturous (have i spelled that right)..
i would also fold that pretty quickly. i know its hard to fold QQ because it feels lke such a monster hand yet you were probably dominated there, not worth risking that much money.

[travz21]

Dew is the fnckin man! I couldn't have said it better myself.

Also, Jeremiah Weed Sweet Tea Vodka is pretty fncking good. Fnck!

[C8H10N4O2]

Dew is the fnckin man! I couldn't have said it better myself.

Also, Jeremiah Weed Sweet Tea Vodka is pretty fncking good. Fnck!

I'm jealous.

[bsg]

It's almost always wrong to fold AA pf, mb if u were on the buibble of a SAT tourney with 3 other ppl all-in in front of you. Even in tourney folding AA is just bad.