Hey there, I'm back with some PLO hand discussion. I've ran a lot of my made hands into drawing hands that hit on the river so I'm dropping my money here and there, about 2BI a session...

So here's the situation, I have no read what so ever on the people (<= gotta get a HUD soon).

Hero is at seat 0 with $8.54.
machete_666 is at seat 1 with $9.95.
KaitehMan is at seat 2 with $17.92.
Dvinik is at seat 3 with $12.81.
HLT51 is at seat 5 with $9.65.

The dealer is seat 2.

Dvinik posts a blind of $.05.
HLT51 posts a blind of $.10.

(Hero is dealt 5h 8c 6c 9c.)

Pre-flop:
Hero calls for $.10.
machete_666 calls for $.10.
KaitehMan raises $.45.
Dvinik folds.
HLT51 folds.
Hero calls for $.45.
machete_666 calls for $.45.

The flop comes
7s Jh 4c.

Yeah, I know, the limp preflop and calling the raise were pretty bad.
Then as usual, let's discuss on the flop
1) What are the other players' ranges ?
2) What do you do on that flop ?

Originally Posted by chiudidier

Hey there, I'm back with some PLO hand discussion. I've ran a lot of my made hands into drawing hands that hit on the river so I'm dropping my money here and there, about 2BI a session...

So here's the situation, I have no read what so ever on the people (<= gotta get a HUD soon).

Hero is at seat 0 with $8.54.
machete_666 is at seat 1 with $9.95.
KaitehMan is at seat 2 with $17.92.
Dvinik is at seat 3 with $12.81.
HLT51 is at seat 5 with $9.65.

The dealer is seat 2.

Dvinik posts a blind of $.05.
HLT51 posts a blind of $.10.

(Hero is dealt 5h 8c 6c 9c.)

Pre-flop:
Hero calls for $.10.
machete_666 calls for $.10.
KaitehMan raises $.45.
Dvinik folds.
HLT51 folds.
Hero calls for $.45.
machete_666 calls for $.45.

The flop comes
7s Jh 4c.

Yeah, I know, the limp preflop and calling the raise were pretty bad.
Then as usual, let's discuss on the flop
1) What are the other players' ranges ?
2) What do you do on that flop ?

first off the limp, call preflop is perfectly fine with that hand. in fact i think it is the best possible way you could have played that hand preflop.

1) to hard to say at this point.

2) you bet the pot on that flop. if you get raised, you reraise the pot.

if the other player has AA you are a huge favorite. if other player has JJ you are still favorite. They only hands you dont really want to see are hands containing 89T. if one of the other players has this then oh well thats unlucky. you play this hand for this flop. get you money in if you can

first off the limp, call preflop is perfectly fine with that hand. in fact i think it is the best possible way you could have played that hand preflop.

1) to hard to say at this point.

2) you bet the pot on that flop. if you get raised, you reraise the pot.

if the other player has AA you are a huge favorite. if other player has JJ you are still favorite. They only hands you dont really want to see are hands containing 89T. if one of the other players has this then oh well thats unlucky. you play this hand for this flop. get you money in if you can

About the limp/call PF, I thought 3 cards of the same suit wasn't that good... I like the connected cards but they seemed rather too small for a flush draw so I'm basically playing for a low straight right ? This looks like kinda reductive but that's what made me say the actions preflop were questionable.

It's true it's hard to have a guess at the original raiser's hand but a raise PF usually indicates either a pair and/or high connectors, especially with that many limpers.

In the end, I'm still a little bit unhappy about calling PF. Yes, the flop is about the best I can ask for, but I'm not sure if I'm that far ahead in a 3-handed hand...

1) well 3 cards of the same suit isnt that good but especially when the highest one is a 9, but that hand is good enough to play if it was rainbow so it can also be played with 3 cards of the same suit. obviously you dont want to be calling on a bare 9 high flush draw or call a 3 pot sized bets if the flush does show up but that doesnt mean the 3 clubs dont add value to you hand. if you end up alll in with a stiaght draw against a set and there are 1 or two clubs on board you will add some equity. if clubs come and it is played passively you could win the pot. also if you make a strait and someone else makes the same staight you add to you chances of winning the whole pot if clubs come.


2) well depending on the player and the table. A button raise may not mean as much strength as you are giving him credit for.


3) you can not fold this hand preflop. hands with single gaps at the bottom are strong hands. so 5789 and 5689 are very good hands. however 5679 is not a good hand, especially under the gun. I dont really want to type a whole explanation about starting hands and what kind of straight draws they make. try googling it or if you feel like spending some money buy jeff hwang's book pot limit omaha poker (it is a pretty good book for beginners and explains the mathematics behind straight draws as well as the playability post flop of the straight draws)

4) well its not the best flop you could hope for. that j isnt really a good card. if you could change that j that would be nice. then you would have a 3568 all give you the nuts with redarws. (although with these stack sizes maybe the benefits of the extra outs added by the j outweight the fact that you loose some nut outs, i dont know)

you are prolly favorite in a three handed pot. although if the money goes in it will most likely be heads up. with this hand you cant really be to far ahead or to far behind. you are happy if everyone folds but you are also ok if all the money goes in.

also i was wrong you are behind against jj** but you stack is smalll enough with the pot sized that you are happy to get you money in here


some math

case 1) against a set
5h6c8c9c 46.50%
JJ** 53.50%


case 2) against an over pair
5h6c8c9c 61.22%
AA** 38.78%

case 3) vs. better wrap
5h6c8c9c 40.08%
89T* 59.92%

case 4) vs. two pair
5h6c8c9c 52.92%
J7** 47.08%

case 5) worst case senario (i think)
5h6c8c9c 34.48%
689Tc 65.52%

case 6) random hand
5h6c8c9c 57.93%
**** 42.07%

3 handed scenarios

case 1)
two random hands you are about 50%

case 2) vs set and other wrap
5h6c8c9c 27.78%
JJ** 48.37%
89T* 23.85%

case 3) vs two sets
5h6c8c9c 48.62%
JJ** 43.03%
77** 8.35%

case 4) vs set and aces
5h6c8c9c 44.62%
AA** 9.85%
77** 45.52%

you also have some fold equity by open potting when you are first to act on this board.


anyway when you have a stack of less than 5 times the pot you are happy to get you money in on this flop. you may consider attempting to check raise here in order to get you whole stack in on the flop (almost all of it anyway). In this instance a free card is good for you or an all in is good for you so by checking you guarantee that you get one of those two things. One thing that is important to know though is that while you cant be to far behing, you cant be to far ahead either and i think at these limits if you check raise you might get called by some week hand because you are all in and they may actually turn out to be positive ev calls for them.

so in summary bet the pot or check raise all in. imagine how long this post would have been if i would have went in to starting hands and the math of straight draws

WOW !! First of all, thank you for such a lengthy explanation on the hand strength. The detailed paragraph where you analyze it was very interesting for me to read. I like this feeling of learning something useful for my hand selection. Then you gave us plenty of examples with odds for both situations (HU & 3-way pot), that was even better ! Thank you so much, that's exactly what I was looking for.

Let's get deeper in the analysis you provided :

1) well 3 cards of the same suit isnt that good but especially when the highest one is a 9, but that hand is good enough to play if it was rainbow so it can also be played with 3 cards of the same suit. obviously you dont want to be calling on a bare 9 high flush draw or call a 3 pot sized bets if the flush does show up but that doesnt mean the 3 clubs dont add value to you hand. if you end up alll in with a stiaght draw against a set and there are 1 or two clubs on board you will add some equity. if clubs come and it is played passively you could win the pot. also if you make a strait and someone else makes the same staight you add to you chances of winning the whole pot if clubs come.

Ok. Can I also think of the 3 clubs also a defense against club flush drawers ? Of course on that flop it's pretty irrelevant but...

2) well depending on the player and the table. A button raise may not mean as much strength as you are giving him credit for.

It's true I don't have a lot of information on the players and their habits. It's also true I don't really know the whole list of hands that can/should be raised PF. I'm probably giving too much credits to my opponents as a general rule anyway...

3) you can not fold this hand preflop. hands with single gaps at the bottom are strong hands. so 5789 and 5689 are very good hands. however 5679 is not a good hand, especially under the gun. I dont really want to type a whole explanation about starting hands and what kind of straight draws they make. try googling it or if you feel like spending some money buy jeff hwang's book pot limit omaha poker (it is a pretty good book for beginners and explains the mathematics behind straight draws as well as the playability post flop of the straight draws)

Another good thing to note down. I'm aware wrap hands are good for drawing, but don't the tend to loose appeal either when the board pairs or when there's a flush draw on the board ?
Again, on that flop it's pretty safe regarding these situation, but just wanted to know...

4) well its not the best flop you could hope for. that j isnt really a good card. if you could change that j that would be nice. then you would have a 3568 all give you the nuts with redarws. (although with these stack sizes maybe the benefits of the extra outs added by the j outweight the fact that you loose some nut outs, i dont know)

Okay, good to know I'm not too far behind or too far ahead anyway on a lot of situations...

So, for the sake of advancing in the discussion (since you're about the only people who wanna talk about PLO hands with me ), here's what happened on the flop :

Hero checks.

machete_666 checks.

KaitehMan bets $1.40.

Hero calls for $1.40.

machete_666 raises $6.

KaitehMan folds.

Hero goes all-in for $6.59.

machete_666 calls for $.59.

I wanted to see another card cheaply (since I haven't a made hand) but obviously I was ready to shove all-in anyway, which is to my astonishment to right decision (from your previous posts).
When the original raiser PF bets pot, I was still looking for a "cheap" card and only called. Then the guy behind me raised for about all my stack, so with my wrap hand I was only behind if he had a better wrap (again, according to your previous posts). Since I've already committed 1/4 of my stack in this, I'm not letting go my draws and decided to go for it !!

It's not really the course of actions you probably hoped to see, but all my money went in, and that's about right, right ?

Originally Posted by chiudidier

Ok. Can I also think of the 3 clubs also a defense against club flush drawers ? Of course on that flop it's pretty irrelevant but...

in theory yes, in practice not really. you should think your made club flush is good if the are some checks or a week bet. otherwise better off just letting it go. also you never want to be drawing at a bare 9 high flush in early position.

Another good thing to note down. I'm aware wrap hands are good for drawing, but don't the tend to loose appeal either when the board pairs or when there's a flush draw on the board ?
Again, on that flop it's pretty safe regarding these situation, but just wanted to know...

yes, however if you are in position they are stronger as you may be able to represent the full house yourself if the board pairs or bluff if the flush draw missed and you opponent has checked.

I wanted to see another card cheaply (since I haven't a made hand) but obviously I was ready to shove all-in anyway, which is to my astonishment to right decision (from your previous posts).
When the original raiser PF bets pot, I was still looking for a "cheap" card and only called. Then the guy behind me raised for about all my stack, so with my wrap hand I was only behind if he had a better wrap (again, according to your previous posts). Since I've already committed 1/4 of my stack in this, I'm not letting go my draws and decided to go for it !!

It's not really the course of actions you probably hoped to see, but all my money went in, and that's about right, right ?

this is a common misconception people have when coming from omaha to holdem. In Holdem you often want to see cards cheaply if you are on the draw as "made hands" are usually favored. the idea of a made hand is irrelevant. What is important is you pot equity. I often laugh when i get mocked in the chat box buy some one who is all in with bare aces against my draw. they make comments that "i am a donkey" "keep drawing you will loose you money. but often times they dont realize i was about 70% to win the hand.

So in my opinion here your hand is just as good as a made hand. when you check, you get exactly what you wanted. A continuation bet from the original raiser. In my opinion calling here is very bad. The one benefit to calling is that if the board pairs on the turn you can release you hand( if he has a set then this is a benefit, other wise you are giving up equity).

Now lets look at the draw backs of calling. You loose any fold equity, remember even q high isnt that far behind against you. If you take down this pot with a check raise thats a good outcome. Another drawback is what if the 3rd player folds and the turn doesn't bring your straight. now you have a bare wrap heads up with one card to come and you are out of position. you would actually be an underdog against a completely random hand (only 40% against a completely random hand if the turn isnt a club.) Also given that you opponent has a 47TJQKA or any pocket pair in his hand, you can not possibly be a favorite on the turn.

A third thing is that the original raiser may call you with a week hand like AA on this flop. but may fold if an obvious straight appears on the turn.


So in this case i think you got lucky that the third player had a hand here but i think that just check calling here is a very big mistake.

So in my opinion here your hand is just as good as a made hand. when you check, you get exactly what you wanted. A continuation bet from the original raiser. In my opinion calling here is very bad. The one benefit to calling is that if the board pairs on the turn you can release you hand( if he has a set then this is a benefit, other wise you are giving up equity).

Now lets look at the draw backs of calling. You loose any fold equity, remember even q high isnt that far behind against you. If you take down this pot with a check raise thats a good outcome. Another drawback is what if the 3rd player folds and the turn doesn't bring your straight. now you have a bare wrap heads up with one card to come and you are out of position. you would actually be an underdog against a completely random hand (only 40% against a completely random hand if the turn isnt a club.) Also given that you opponent has a 47TJQKA or any pocket pair in his hand, you can not possibly be a favorite on the turn.

Hmmm, okay. Thanks for the tips. I'm probably a big enough novice to only see things from the cards on the board and not thinking about the cards to come. I thought that calling was a good option because I can release my hand to a bet on the turn if I miss. This way I'm not losing that much money when I'm letting it go.

Initial raiser PF bets and I should have raised. What would have happened if I did ? Do you think the next guy would have reraised ?

A third thing is that the original raiser may call you with a week hand like AA on this flop. but may fold if an obvious straight appears on the turn.

So in this case i think you got lucky that the third player had a hand here but i think that just check calling here is a very big mistake.

Ok, wrong play noted down, I'm raising this from now on
What's the 3rd player range here ?

to answer you first question i dont know, depends what he had (you still havent posted the players hands i dont think). most likely the same thing would have happened.


at that level i would say his range would included wraps, and then made hands all the way down to bottom two pair.

Okay here's the showdown :

Hero shows: 5h 8c 6c 9c

Jh 9c 8c 7s 4c
Jack high

machete_666 shows: 10c Js 10d 8d

Jh Js 10c 7s 4c
A pair of Jacks

The turn comes Kd.
The river comes Jd.

machete_666 shows: 10c Js 10d 8d

Jh Jd Js Kd 10c
Three Jacks

Hero shows: 5h 8c 6c 9c

Jh Jd Kd 9c 8c
A pair of Jacks

machete_666 wins pot ($18.18).

I'm waiting for your comments on the outcome.

as for you play you are happy to be in heads up against his range of hands. As for his play it isnt terrible but its not great either. If he was thinking the button bet was just a continuation bet and the early position called so he is either weak and cant play for a raise or is on a draw, then his re raise is a good play i guess and in this case it would have worked out well for him. However with the action the way it was against the two opponents ranges i think his shove is bad. My guess would be though that he though a pair and a gut shot is a good hand so he went all in.

Now we can look at some results based analysis. i think it is important to not get too caught up in these numbers as they are just one outcome of many hands that could have played the same way. but here are some numbers anyway.

5h6c8c9c 51.59%
JsTcTd8d 48.41%

so you got your money in on the flop ahead. with the dead money you are well above 0 ev.

you ev on this was .516*(18.18)=$9.38 you put 7.99 in on the flop so you expected profit on the way it played out is $1.39. notice though in this case he has $8.8 pot equity so play his play was actually positive ev as well

now if you shove and and the other two players fold you get $2.8. if you shove and player 3 calls then you ev is exactly the same as before. if you shove and player 3 folds and the pf raiser calls then you prolly have a little more ev than the 1.39. We dont know what the pf raiser had, but considering he folded it most likely does not play as well against you as the jtt8 as that is a pretty good hand against your exact hand. with a pair and 3 blockers to your straight.

anyway the reason i go into this is because your shove will produce one of those three results each with some probability. so your expected profit on the shove is p1*(2.8)+p2(1.39)+p3*(x) ,where x is greater than 1.39. (I guess there is some chance that they both call you shove but i am going to assume that to be very close to 0)

since p1,p2,and p3 are +, this number must be greater than 1.39. This shows that both the way you played it and check raising are positive ev, however check raising would have been more positive ev.


in the end you just got unlucky, time to reload.


This shows one interesting thing about online plo. Raised pots play very differently post flop than unraised pots. Since the buyins are capped often times you have people with between 60-100 big blinds. the pf raises changes the stack to pot ratio and can make hands that would never play for 13 pot sized bets become easy shoves for 4 pot sized bets.

as in your hand if the pot was unraised 3 way there would be .35 cents. instead there was 1.4. in the first case you 8 dollars would be 23 pot sized bets. but since there was a raise you 8 dollars is only 5.7 pot sized bets. this drastically changes the way a hand should be played post flop.