Horrible turn play leaves me in a bad spot on the river

[frob23]

So tonight I was goofing around with some $4NL 6-max and this is a hand came up. I knew from the start where I did not want to end up. This villain has a habit of shoving rivers regardless of pot size. When I first got this hand, the last spot I wanted to find myself in was with a large pot on the river and only one pair.

0: BTN: $3.38
1: SB: $2.55
2: BB: $1.63
3: UTG: $2.06
4: Villain: $4.74
5: Hero: $5.26

Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero has K A
1 fold, Villain calls $0.04, Hero raises to $0.18, 3 folds, Villain calls $0.14

Flop: ($0.42) 3 Q K
Villain bets $0.16, Hero raises to $0.48, Villain calls $0.32

Turn: ($1.38) 3 Q K 4
Villain bets $0.32, Hero raises to $0.96, Villain calls $0.64

River: ($3.30) 3 Q K 4 2


The villain has $3.12 left in his stack. I have gotten myself to the river with a one pair hand, a large pot, effective stacks of about the size of the pot, and a villain who loves to shove rivers when he has been betting throughout the hand. This is a recipe for disaster.

If he shoves here, I have a really hard decision to make. He could easily have KQ or even K-4 (he'll play anything). Hell, he could have Q-3 (it is well within his range) and I have been being slow-rolled the entire time. At the same time, he could also shove a lot of one-pair hands that I beat as well as a bunch of random bluffs. I can easily see him shoving J-T here. In fact, his range is pretty heavily polarized towards two pair hands and J-T or similar hands if he shoves. He will semi-bluff small like that when on the draw. And he will also bet small like that with larger hands.

If he shoves, it is a bad call but it's also a pretty bad fold too. This is exactly the sort of spot I don't want to find myself in on the river against this sort of monkey. If I raise more on the turn the pot will be large enough that I almost have to call. If I smooth call, I can get away because the pot will be a lot smaller when he shoves. Basically, I commit far too many chips to this hand without being committed to going all-in.

So what do you do differently to avoid finding yourself in this spot?

[MikeyEl]

You know the answer to your question. You have TPTK AND position. You need to exercise some pot control. The reason the pot got so bloated is because of your raises.

Why were you raising? What was your plan? Despite your statement to the contrary, it really seems like you wanted to play for stacks.

I can sorta understand raising the flop. It's not really a value bet because no hands that you beat are calling you. But, it does do two things, 1) it could get hands to fold that could possibly beat you on later streets, and 2) If villain shows more aggression, your TPTK may not be good here. I'd rather just smooth call and keep the pot small. Small pots for small hands.

To avoid this tough situation you should be smooth calling him all the way till the river. No bloated pot; no tears shed if he bets AI because I would have only put in 16 BBs (maybe less, maybe the bloated pot skewed his bets)

With that being said, if villain is this much of a maniac that he would stack off with Jack high, you should be willing to call an all in bet when you have TPTK. It isn't ideal, but you said it yourself he will show up with anything.

Another option... shove pre. No tough situations, just sick back and watch.

[HeyKidMove]

If he shoves, I think you have to call. I don't know why you would question it given your read. It seems you wanted stacks in with your raises anyway. His small turn bet looks like a blocker, so I think there are a ton of missed draws/weak hands that you beat in his range.

Also, I don't know what you being slow-rolled the entire time has to do with the hand. I'm assuming you mean you have been getting slow played, but villain has donked both streets here.

[travz21]

I think this is pretty common in micros, but I'll ask it anyways. Don't most of the players that have two pair or better shove turns with this kind of action? It seems that they play tourney poker and just shove because they think they're ahead.

Anyways, I probably snap a shove on this river because I don't give any micro limit players credit for being good since the average NL4'er is like 60/10.

And like others else said, donk bets by fish almost always mean they want to pot control and get to cheap turns and rivers. If they donk and get 3bet and then shove, then I'd consider folding. That isn't the case here though.

[hockeyguy]

you seem conflicted and somewhat scared about the hand
you dont want to play big pot w 1 pr at river because your afraid of villian shove

but you dont control pot by simple call down and you dont make aggressive play to end hand or see where you stand on turn. villian makes 1/5 pot bet and you make a 3x raise,
but it is only about 1/2 pot and he already put in 1/3 of it. what was your goal?
do you think you are best?
are you trying to see where you are at?
are you trying to get value?
are you trying to control pot size
are you trying to induce river bluff?
if you think he is bluffig are you able to follow plan and call river bet/bluff?
are you thinking too much about how to beat this type of yahoo?

my plan when i played these stakes was simple

1) bet made hands vs spazzes like this, sometimes serial overbet made hands if i want to keep it simple, it tends to turn this type of player into caller
2) let him hang himself when i have big hand, in case vs mess like this guy top 2 pr big enough
flop bet or overbet if he has called then before, check or smaller bet turn blank, chk or weak bet river, they cant help themselves on river to push into the shown "weakness"
3) dont outthink myself
4) dont be afraid he has always paired his 2 rags q3, j4, k3
5) be prepared for some swings

most of all have a plan you are comfortable with and can follow
if you dont like swings can avoid him, and wait till you have big hand and play for stacks

or

be aggressive and pressure him, you can over bet flops/turns with 1 pr type hands to end hand and/or charge him max to chase, and wait till you have big hand feign weakness and play for stacks

personally i overraise the turn with the intention to call a push
these micro yahoos will call down or overplay wide range here kt kj flush draw,str8 draw, wheel draw w Ace overcard
remember you said his range is any two cards tptk is ahead of this, but unlike higher games you will get called by worse hands here
at an amazing rate.

[Wyte22]

As played, raise more on turn, and call his shove on river. Flop he led out and you re-raised a standard 3x. and his bet was less than 1/2 the pot. On the turn, he leads out with a bet that is less than 1/4 of the pot, this is a blocking bet, he doesn't want you to raise him. Now raising him here will committ you end of story, your passing the committment threshold.

Since you were committed to hand and there's Effective stacks of $4.12 on the turn, your objective if you raise here, is how do i break it up to get the most money in the pot in the next 2 streets. JT is likely so an Ace only hurts you by making sure your committed with top two, 2 pair is likely, but so is AJdd/AQo. your ahead of it all expect 2 pair. We don't have numbers on this guy so it is alittle hard to assign probabilities to each given situation but you did give us info that he shoves river regardless of pot size. Given this info, we raise the turn to $1.56 (there was already $1.70 in pot after he bet) if he calls there will be $3.82 in pot on river with effective stacks being $2.56. If he checks river, check back, given you only have one pair but like he has done in the past, he shoves rivers so now you have it set up that you'll be risking $2.56 to win a pot over $6 when he river shoves, so the turn raise prices the river shove by the villian in and it makes it no decision needed and no hard situation to be in.

Trust me, hindsight is 20/20

[frob23]

I openly admit that I played this hand poorly. I did exactly what I didn't want. I had a plan going in and ignored it until I suddenly found myself on the river and realized what had happened.

As it happened, he thought for a long time while I stewed. And then he bet $0.12. I just called and he turned over K-J. My hand held up and won the pot. But it wasn't the results of the hand that bothered me as much as my play and how I did something I knew I didn't want to do.

If he had shoved the river, I would have had a hard decision. I probably end up calling anyway but I wouldn't have liked it.

[gamer4life27]

I am going to post what I was going to post before reading the results.

(let me start out with some advice for those looking to play low limits properly)

What some people noted before me, you should really be playing the pot to control the size of the pot. You do know that because you admited that. But for low limits (I'm going to refer to one of my poker idols), you want to revert to Daniel Negreanu's style of play, and that is small ball poker.

The reason for this is because you are preparing yourself for multi-way pots against people who are looking to just gamble, have fun, or blow off some money. As we all know, multi-way pots with any holdings isn't a good thing because your odds of winning decrease exponentially per person in the pot. Even with pocket Aces, with the right amount of people in the pot, you could be less than a 40% favorite to win the hand.

So even when you have a good/premium hand, if you don't hit the flop, someone else who is in the hand most likely would have. Thus, your hand would be drawing very slim at the pot and would have to let it go.

A good learning lesson for this type of play for those who are interested can be found on fulltiltpoker's academy. It is titled "Playing Micro-Stakes" by Eric Froehlich. An example of one of the tasks that is asks you to do is as follows:

"At a real money, NL Holdem cash game table that is 6-handed or more, call the big blind (limp) pre-flop with a medium-sized pocket pair (77-JJ)."

I think this link is the direct link to the challenge: http://academy.fulltiltpoker.com/cha...allenges/id/24

And this is the link to the lesson: http://academy.fulltiltpoker.com/les...g-micro-stakes

Now, to get to this specific hand.

Given all the information that I have playing micro stakes, and how you explain this person, it should like he would be bluffing more often than he would be betting with the best hand. Even the way the betting went it looks like he has a sort of strong hand, but nothing to bank on. I put him on either Q10, QJ, K10, KJ, 88, 99, 1010, or JJ as hands that don't beat you. I don't think think he would be limp/calling with QQ or KK. If he did, then he is actually a sneakier player than he appears and might be playing that stakes to make a slow, steady bankroll. But I highly doubt that.

So the only hands that can really beat you here are 22, 33, 44, and KQ. With this hand range, he would be bluffing 2/3 of the time, and betting witht he best hand only 1/3 of the time. And since he likes to shove after persuing the pot, his range could be even wider than that. So if you are getting close to these odds, then I personally would call. In fact, I would call his river shove if I knew he was going to.

If in my mind, I got to the river knowing he was going to shove, if I felt on the flop I had the best hand, then my read would still be the same on the river. But if I felt like I was drawing to some cards (either I was on a draw, had a QJ or AQ and thought he had a King) and didn't get their, I wouldn't be raising all the way to the river, but rather calling and then fold on the river.

But the way the hand went, I am not insta calling, but calling none the less if he shoves on the river.

[gerhardt]

The slow play, continious betting stratigy does not work anymore.
Got caught with two sets myself this week. QQQ and AAA. Slow played them to the river, and lost to straits on both occasions.
So, I know how you feel bud.

[purplechip1]

id have called an allin
called a decent sized bet
and shoved my ak if he bet 12 cents on the river