High pocket pairs and a flopped ace

[sjones403]

I'm pretty sure I've been handing out money in these situations lately....

Game: 6 Max NL
Villain: Tight-Aggressive Regular waiting for his chance to take my money
Hero Cards: KK, QQ, JJ, TT
Villain in position raises to $3
Hero in SB or BB 3 bets to $10
Villain calls
Flop A 4 8 (we'll assume a rainbow flop)

What do I do in this situation? It seems that every time this happens lately the pot gets out of control and I fold, knowing that they don't have it every time. Typically when I cbet the flop I only get a call, leaving me with no information regarding what to do on the turn. Any advice is appreciated...

[travz21]

I'd 3bet to $11 or $12 pf since I'm out of position. Check/calling the flop is a good option if you also do this with AK/AQ/AJ/sets sometimes as well. This would also be a decent option if your cbet % is >80, since if you cbet you'll get floated a lot and bloat a pot OOP having know idea what to do on later streets. It all comes down to your stats and the villain's stats basically. 6max is pretty stat dependent. In full ring people have AA or KK every hand so you don't really need reads.

[MikeyEl]

is this NL100?

Stack sizes?

[sjones403]

NL 100
My stack size will always be 100 BB+ (insta-reload when i go under) and it's usually the same for the TAGs i'm speaking of

[snipermcgees]

You could try flat-callling in the blind, and check-raising the flop.

Just a different line you could take once in a while to mix it up. You can size the flop check-raise so that you're investing about the same amount of chips as taking the 3-bet pre-flop, cont-bet flop line.

Remember that your hand will look stronger (at least from my perspective I give a flop c/r more credit than a 3-bet pre), so if villain is willing to continue, you're probably in rough shape. If that happens, my best advice is to spike the turn for a set.

[sjones403]

Haha I tend to have great results I spike sets on the turn. That must be the key to being a good 6-max player

[pajala]

No matter what ppl saying 3 Betting KK,QQ or JJ from the blinds is always the correct play in 6 MAX, the major reason is you are at least a 70% favourite vs. any hand pre-flop excluding AA.

6 Max is a far more aggressive game so the flat call rather than a 4 bet indicates to me he is not holding AA,KK,QQ. The money is going in pre flop with these hands.

When the A does hit the board the correct option is to check raise the villain, this puts control of the pot into your hands not his with position if he shoves over the top your done let it go, but you have a excellent chance of taking this down right there and then.

If he checks the flop then bet the turn, the villain will give you credit for the ace if he raises you are more than likely behind and it’s your choice to draw for the set depending on the size of the call, me I am letting this go

[pajala]

Sorry the 70% fav v any hand was in relation to holding KK

[travz21]

No matter what ppl saying 3 Betting KK,QQ or JJ from the blinds is always the correct play in 6 MAX, the major reason is you are at least a 70% favourite vs. any hand pre-flop excluding AA.

6 Max is a far more aggressive game so the flat call rather than a 4 bet indicates to me he is not holding AA,KK,QQ. The money is going in pre flop with these hands.

When the A does hit the board the correct option is to check raise the villain, this puts control of the pot into your hands not his with position if he shoves over the top your done let it go, but you have a excellent chance of taking this down right there and then.

If he checks the flop then bet the turn, the villain will give you credit for the ace if he raises you are more than likely behind and it’s your choice to draw for the set depending on the size of the call, me I am letting this go

You thought of some creative ways to play the hand badly, that's about it. Check/raising that flop is such a spewtastic play. I'm not a fan of turning QQ into bluffs on the flop. Why are you waiting for QQ pf if you're just going to throw away all of its value post flop? You could be check/raising with 72o on that flop and have the same effect. You'd either get all hands worse than QQ to fold and pretty much 100% of the hands that beat QQ are calling/shoving. So whether or not you actually have QQ in this spot, a check/raise would give you those results. Which means QQ=72o if you check/raise here.

Then we can get to the point where check/raising this flop would put in like 60% of your stack. I don't imagine putting in 60% of your stack and folding would be a profitable way of playing QQ.

[travz21]

Sorry the 70% fav v any hand was in relation to holding KK

What about Vs. AA or AK?

[pajala]

trav

appreciate the feedback to my post

I agreeg with 60% of your stack in the middle you are more than likely not folding QQ even if u know your beat, however I find c/r gives you a far better understanding of how your holdings if your opponents does have the A

I have seen to many ppl lay down QQ,KK,JJ when a A hits the flop even I have done this in the past particually opp knowing full well you are more than likely in front

to clarify in my orginal post i did say 70% fav excluding AA however I was refering to holding KK

KK vs AK is still around 70%

[travz21]

So we should put in 60% of our stack to make sure we know where we're at? Even if we can be making the same play with 72o and have the same value? Again, check/raising is spewtarded.

[phaul]

Which means QQ=72o if you check/raise here.

Not quite, Trav. We have 2 outs; it's a semibluff!

I agreeg with 60% of your stack in the middle you are more than likely not folding QQ even if u know your beat, however I find c/r gives you a far better understanding of how your holdings if your opponents does have the A

This is an awful reason to c/r. Also guys, if you have 60% of your stack in with a 9% chance of winning the pot, you can fold.

IMO in general, when playing at a basic level (with no gameflow or reads at low stakes), if you 3bet preflop then check to an Ace flop, you don't have it. An Ace is a horrible card here not just because loads of hands you were beating now beat you, but also because your range now crushes any pocket pair they hold (so you lose tons of value from hands you were beating that didn't overtake you). You do unfortunately lose most of your value.

In general, I'd want to use as much pot-control here as possible, but this situation is quite villain-dependent. Unless they're an absolute spewtard, c/r is bad for 2 reasons:
1) It bloats the pot horribly.
2) They have chosen to bet the flop instead of checking back. What hands that beat you are you going to get them to fold, and what hands that you beat are going to call a c/r? Not that many. Maybe JJ/TT/99 could call if you've been 3betting wide pre.

If villain will call 3bets wide pre then you could maybe turn your hand into a bluff-catcher and c/c as many streets as you think are profitable (as he'll bluff with KQ/KJ/KT or sometimes worse pairs after you show weakness). If villain is a nit preflop then just try and check it down, maybe calling turn and/or river if you check twice. Maybe c/r or lead river if flop and turn check through. If you've been 3betting wide pre then a cbet could be good as he may call you (possibly floating) relatively wide. Etc. Really depends on his calling range preflop, his tendencies postflop and your image.

If it's an unknown I'd cbet the flop for 2/3rds pot, as you would (in general) with an Ace, then prob shut down.


Btw I've never really sat down and thought about this before, I've just spent the last hour thinking about this, so there may be some logically inconsistent/plain wrong stuff in this post.

[MikeyEl]

I'm glad someone ressurected this post. It has really turned into a great discussion. I haven't had a really good opportunity to digest the whole thread, but wanted to throw my two cents in about playing one of the situations you meantioned

I don't understand the logic behind 3-betting QQ (same can be said for JJ) from the blinds as a general practice. i'm not saying I never do it, but i think the best way to get value from QQ is to smooth call from the blinds.

Preflop you are probably the best hand, but you are OOP! Why bloat the pot preflop when you know that the following is true:

1) There is nearly a 50% chance that a scare card is going to hit on the flop; and
2) Your villain is going to c-bet the flop 90% of the time regardless of what falls

Usually the size of that c-bet is a committing bet (Assuming we're talking 100 BBs tables), meaning that if you are calling that bet... you'd better be ready to play for stacks.

I feel like that is just a horrible way to play from OOP.

Why not play smooth call 65-70% and 3-bet 30% of the time.

In my experience (albeit at lower stakes) I've been able to call down small pots when an ace or king falls if I felt there was a chance the villain did not have it; and been able to get maximum value for my hand when it is an overpair.

[travz21]

I'm glad someone ressurected this post. It has really turned into a great discussion. I haven't had a really good opportunity to digest the whole thread, but wanted to throw my two cents in about playing one of the situations you meantioned

I don't understand the logic behind 3-betting QQ (same can be said for JJ) from the blinds as a general practice. i'm not saying I never do it, but i think the best way to get value from QQ is to smooth call from the blinds.

Preflop you are probably the best hand, but you are OOP! Why bloat the pot preflop when you know that the following is true:

1) There is nearly a 50% chance that a scare card is going to hit on the flop; and
2) Your villain is going to c-bet the flop 90% of the time regardless of what falls

Usually the size of that c-bet is a committing bet (Assuming we're talking 100 BBs tables), meaning that if you are calling that bet... you'd better be ready to play for stacks.

I feel like that is just a horrible way to play from OOP.

Why not play smooth call 65-70% and 3-bet 30% of the time.

In my experience (albeit at lower stakes) I've been able to call down small pots when an ace or king falls if I felt there was a chance the villain did not have it; and been able to get maximum value for my hand when it is an overpair.

Depending on your style, 3betting could be better or worse than flatting in 6max. If you're a TAG or LAG, you should have a decent range of 3betting. Maybe 6-10%, depending what stakes you're playing at. Obviously you don't want to do something one way 100% of the time, but you should almost always be 3betting QQ in the blinds. Most villains will call with a much worse range, you can take the pot down without them seeing free cards, and in general, most players don't play well in big pots post flop, so you can stack them much easier. However, if hero is a bad player themselves or don't feel confident in their post flop skills, I can see why flatting would be more appealing.