Rush Poker : Preflop Re-raises

[CallifyouDare]

Hi,

As Rush Poker has been ongoing for a few weeks now, people have probably gotten a lot of experience in these cash games. In fact, I'm not a cash game specialist so please indulge any lack of sense in what I say. I'm just looking for opinions on a specific kind of play : the pre-flop re-raises.

Although it seems about right to raise pre-flop with any 2 cards, I'm a little puzzled about what kind of hand people who use the re-raise might have. The thing is that in Rush Poker, you don't know who you're playing with due to the fact that you're mixed with hundreds (if not thousands) of opponents, thus annihilating the whole "table image" concept.

Of course, there's always the occasional opponent whom you have already played against and might have some info about his tendencies. But in a majority of times, you're clueless about what your opponent could possibly have re-raised you with. It's so easy to just fold and go into the next hand that I've seen a lot of this kind of play which is one way to exploit people tightening up a little bit more than usual (or so I believe).

For the sake of the discussion here's one hypothetical situation : NLHE $10, Rush Poker table.
Seat 1: Dealer ($3.85)
Seat 2: SB ($9.90)
Seat 3: BB ($15.88)
Seat 4: UTG ($3.78)
Seat 5: UTG+1 ($7.42)
Seat 6: MP1 ($9.94)
Seat 7: MP2 007 ($8.43)
Seat 8: HiJack ($10.93)
Seat 9: CO ($10)

You're in MP1 with a hand from the following list :
AKo, AKs, AQo, AQs, AJs, and all the PP from 22 to 99. You choose to raise to anything between $0.30 to $0.50 and someone between you and the button re-raises $1 or more (at least 3x your raise). What's your general course of action here ?

As for myself, I'm always a bit scared about those kind of re-raises. I sense people are more inclined to do it with a big pair but I've also seen it done with AJ and lower Ax... The only info I can extract is from the stack the re-raiser has :
- if he's under $10 I'm pretty sure he has a monster
- if he's over $20 he might be trying to bully/re-steal (squeeze play)

I'm usually folding any pair under sixes and I'd like to see the flop with any suited Ax. Most of the time, Ax suited misses and I check/fold. I'm pretty sure this is a passive way to play it but I don't know what is the consensus on the course of actions here, if there is any...

[CallifyouDare]

As described by travz21 here, the strength of the re-raise can also be guessed at by the position the re-raiser is in. Now, should the re-raise come from the SB, can you automatically put him on a premium hand (JJ+ and AQ+) ? Is calling the re-raise the best choice here since we have position on the villain ?

As I see it, there choices are :
- Folding, and wait for a better hand/spot (isn't this the whole point of Rush Poker and the Quick Fold option ?)
- Calling, see the flop if you hit with Ax (what if you don't hit the flop ?)
- Re-raising (and he does have a preimum hand, he's calling/shoving you)

What are your opinions ?

[ThorneJT]

Hi,

What Rush has done to the poker world is simply make cash games faster and a little more mechanical. Sure, 3 betting in cash games is a staple. It's something that's going to happen frequently, and something I do quite often.

Three betting is simply a move relying both on hand strength and fold equity. You need to have a hand with some equity when you make this move because you will get called on occasion. The best hands to this with are the suited connectors and suited aces. You also need to three bet your premium hands to mix this in so your three bets aren't all suited connectors or suited aces, because people will just 4 bet you in position with anything, and you'll be forced to lay down the hand, or if you're really crazy, 5 bet with absolutely nothing.

The thing about Rush three betting is that if someone raises on the button, and you three bet them, and they call, odds are they have something. The best thing to do is to gauge their strength based on their flop actions. Cold calling these bets is not something you want to make a habit of doing, and it's really tempting to do, but if you have solid equity in the hand, you want to three bet it preflop while it's still good.

The best thing to do in Rush, since you don't really have metagame working for you, is to simply wait for a better spot.

Ex:

you hold AsJs in 3rd pos. Everyone folds.

Pot: $1.50, effective stacks $100.00
you raise to $3.50, and everyone folds to the cutoff, who decides to make it $11.50. Everyone else folds to you, and you have a decision.

You could cold call this bet, or you could four bet to put him on a range. However, how often do you want to four bet with AJs? Not often. What rush allows you to do is to play many hands and you can wait for better spots. Don't get caught up in your hand value and whether or not your opponent is making a move. Cold calling with this hand is an option, but then again, AJs ops is not a great hand. Throw it away.

[CallifyouDare]

Hi,

First, thanks for contributing, the thread has been dead since its opening for over a week...

Second, well, of course 3-betting is bound to happen in a cash game. The thing is that in a regular cash game, you can call or 4-bet with more ease than in Rush Poker because you ought to have watched the other players at your table and thus have made some (mental) note about their 3-betting range. In this case, you've got some help to make the (hopefully right) move, whereas in Rush Poker, your decision can only be made according to positions, stack sizes, your own hand and whatever feeling you have regarding the hand.

As I understand it, it's easier to let go AJs and AQs than it is for AKs, and a PP under nines. I'm thinking more towards smaller PPs : do you really have any equity to call and see the flop in order to try for a set ? And if you miss your set and the board contains no Ace or Paint card, can you put the re-raiser on Ax ? If he does, can you shake him off the hand with a pot-bet ?

Here's one hand I witnessed earlier with some PF 3-bet :
How do you think everyone played it ?

Full Tilt Poker Game #18690432461: Table Mach 10 - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:03:57 ET - 2010/02/22

Seat 1: CO ($9.90)
Seat 2: Button ($13.51)
Seat 3: SB ($22.59)
Seat 4: BB ($7.46)
Seat 5: UTG ($9.54)
Seat 6: UTG+1 ($4.49)
Seat 7: MP1 ($12.54)
Seat 8: MP2 ($4.25)
Seat 9: HiJ ($19.31)

SB posts the small blind of $0.05
BB posts the big blind of $0.10

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to CO [6d Jh]
UTG folds
UTG+1 folds
MP1 folds
MP2 folds
HiJ has 8 seconds left to act
HiJ calls $0.10
CO folds
Button raises to $0.40
SB has 15 seconds left to act
SB raises to $1.50
BB calls $1.40
HiJ folds
Button calls $1.10

*** FLOP *** [8d Td 6c]

SB checks
BB bets $4.60
Button folds
SB raises to $21.09, and is all in
BB calls $1.36, and is all in
SB shows [Ad 9d]
BB shows [Qd Qc]
Uncalled bet of $15.13 returned to BB

*** TURN *** [8d Td 6c] [5c]
*** RIVER *** [8d Td 6c 5c] [4h]

SB shows Ace Ten high
BB shows a pair of Queens
BB wins the pot ($15.42) with a pair of Queens

[travz21]

Hi,

What Rush has done to the poker world is simply make cash games faster and a little more mechanical. Sure, 3 betting in cash games is a staple. It's something that's going to happen frequently, and something I do quite often.

Three betting is simply a move relying both on hand strength and fold equity. You need to have a hand with some equity when you make this move because you will get called on occasion. The best hands to this with are the suited connectors and suited aces. You also need to three bet your premium hands to mix this in so your three bets aren't all suited connectors or suited aces, because people will just 4 bet you in position with anything, and you'll be forced to lay down the hand, or if you're really crazy, 5 bet with absolutely nothing.

The thing about Rush three betting is that if someone raises on the button, and you three bet them, and they call, odds are they have something. The best thing to do is to gauge their strength based on their flop actions. Cold calling these bets is not something you want to make a habit of doing, and it's really tempting to do, but if you have solid equity in the hand, you want to three bet it preflop while it's still good.

The best thing to do in Rush, since you don't really have metagame working for you, is to simply wait for a better spot.

Ex:

you hold AsJs in 3rd pos. Everyone folds.

Pot: $1.50, effective stacks $100.00
you raise to $3.50, and everyone folds to the cutoff, who decides to make it $11.50. Everyone else folds to you, and you have a decision.

You could cold call this bet, or you could four bet to put him on a range. However, how often do you want to four bet with AJs? Not often. What rush allows you to do is to play many hands and you can wait for better spots. Don't get caught up in your hand value and whether or not your opponent is making a move. Cold calling with this hand is an option, but then again, AJs ops is not a great hand. Throw it away.

Well put. Rush poker is quite a bit different than regular cash games regarding dynamic. There are a couple things that take some time adapting to. Like people having position images instead of table images. It's not nearly as fun as regular cash games where you have metagame, but it's something new and you can put in ridiculous volume.

And as far as I've seen, a lot of the bad regs and fish are playing it like a normal cash game. This equates to spewage.

[travz21]

Hi,

First, thanks for contributing, the thread has been dead since its opening for over a week...

Second, well, of course 3-betting is bound to happen in a cash game. The thing is that in a regular cash game, you can call or 4-bet with more ease than in Rush Poker because you ought to have watched the other players at your table and thus have made some (mental) note about their 3-betting range. In this case, you've got some help to make the (hopefully right) move, whereas in Rush Poker, your decision can only be made according to positions, stack sizes, your own hand and whatever feeling you have regarding the hand.

As I understand it, it's easier to let go AJs and AQs than it is for AKs, and a PP under nines. I'm thinking more towards smaller PPs : do you really have any equity to call and see the flop in order to try for a set ? And if you miss your set and the board contains no Ace or Paint card, can you put the re-raiser on Ax ? If he does, can you shake him off the hand with a pot-bet ?

Here's one hand I witnessed earlier with some PF 3-bet :
How do you think everyone played it ?

Full Tilt Poker Game #18690432461: Table Mach 10 - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:03:57 ET - 2010/02/22

Seat 1: CO ($9.90)
Seat 2: Button ($13.51)
Seat 3: SB ($22.59)
Seat 4: BB ($7.46)
Seat 5: UTG ($9.54)
Seat 6: UTG+1 ($4.49)
Seat 7: MP1 ($12.54)
Seat 8: MP2 ($4.25)
Seat 9: HiJ ($19.31)

SB posts the small blind of $0.05
BB posts the big blind of $0.10

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to CO [6d Jh]
UTG folds
UTG+1 folds
MP1 folds
MP2 folds
HiJ has 8 seconds left to act
HiJ calls $0.10
CO folds
Button raises to $0.40
SB has 15 seconds left to act
SB raises to $1.50
BB calls $1.40
HiJ folds
Button calls $1.10

*** FLOP *** [8d Td 6c]

SB checks
BB bets $4.60
Button folds
SB raises to $21.09, and is all in
BB calls $1.36, and is all in
SB shows [Ad 9d]
BB shows [Qd Qc]
Uncalled bet of $15.13 returned to BB

*** TURN *** [8d Td 6c] [5c]
*** RIVER *** [8d Td 6c 5c] [4h]

SB shows Ace Ten high
BB shows a pair of Queens
BB wins the pot ($15.42) with a pair of Queens

A cold call of a 4bet is almost always an AK, QQ+ range from a passive player. It can also be some enormous range from some drooler. It's impossible to tell unless you have prior reads on villain, which is hard considering it's Rush.

This is the beauty of Rush. You'll have no reads on opponents and need to evaluate the hand soley on their positional image and their betsizing. This can be used to exploit players and can also get you into trouble since it is quite possible you're 3betting some 1/1 guy who only plays AA and KK.

[ThorneJT]

Ok, I read the original thread, and I have something more to add about equity, which is also a convenient transition into my reply to your recent post. So...

What you are doing is you are taking the hands that you have about even equity with in seeing the flop. That means, possible flipping hands (A8o + and 55+) with 3betting. The only thing that you have to know is the less of a stack that a person has, the more respect you have to give a three bet. Also, the size of their 3 betusually indicateswhat type hand they have in respect to their position. In micro limit cash, people usually have a tendency to min 3 bet the strongest oftheir range, and as a reminder, you have to resist doing this because you're scared to not get any action. Play it as you would any other situation and don't focus on the metagame play. Rush just doesn't allow you to do this.

The small pairs...you do not have any equity in calling and seeing a flop ops. Not one single drop of equity. Your stacks need to be really deep to balance out implied odds and expressed odds. However, from the fold equity you gain from 3 betting preflop while your hand is still best, it is much better to 3 bet these hands ops and cold call a 2 bet in pos, while occassionally mixing in some 3 bets in pos so you don't become predictable...but in Rush, it's not all that bad to play predictably. If you start calling with small pairs out of pos, prepare to throw away your money. They are drawing hands, but the special thing about them is that they hold more equity than an 87s preflop just because they are ahead of anything except a higher pair. Play the equity in the situation, and throw out the mindset "I HAVE A PAIR!!!!!" It's not that strong of a hand after the flop unless you can hit a set. You will throw away your hand most of the time.
The same goes for the Ax suited hands. Do not try and call and try and flop something with these hands. Please do your bankroll a favor and only attribute a small part of your calling range ops with these hands. Only a small percentage of the time. You will only flop a draw about 10% of thetime, flop a flush 1% of the time, and almost always be dominated by a bigger ace. If an ace comes, you have no info about your opponent's hand, so you will likely end up checking and folding, or building a pot where you are either drawing dead or drawing thin. These hands have a ton of equity in pos, out of pos, not so much.

About the hand played this way.

Pretty standard three bet, and pretty standard check raise with an open ended straight draw. Two things to consider, you had two people call your 3 bet and they both have pos on you. One person has already shown that they want to be serious in playing this hand, and they may have an overpair or a big draw. However, you think you have some equity by taking the betting and check-shoving with an open ended straight and an over. I think this is a pretty standard play, and the person with A9 was about 44% to win and the queens were 56%. Not very bad play equity wise. Getting about 6to1 on his money with QQ, they called the check shove, and they were short stacked. Pretty easy call. The only thing I would've done differently with queens is to 4 bet. it's not ideal to see a flop with QQ with 3 people in the hand. You only have about 40% of the equity remaining in the hand. I would've definitely stuck in another bet. QQ got lucky nothing hit, but a fold preflop from everyone would've been ideal. If the SB wanted to call off all his money with A9, let him do it when he has 27% equity, not 44%.

[CallifyouDare]

About the hand played this way.

Pretty standard three bet, and pretty standard check raise with an open ended straight draw. Two things to consider, you had two people call your 3 bet and they both have pos on you. One person has already shown that they want to be serious in playing this hand, and they may have an overpair or a big draw. However, you think you have some equity by taking the betting and check-shoving with an open ended straight and an over. I think this is a pretty standard play, and the person with A9 was about 44% to win and the queens were 56%. Not very bad play equity wise. Getting about 6to1 on his money with QQ, they called the check shove, and they were short stacked. Pretty easy call. The only thing I would've done differently with queens is to 4 bet. it's not ideal to see a flop with QQ with 3 people in the hand. You only have about 40% of the equity remaining in the hand. I would've definitely stuck in another bet. QQ got lucky nothing hit, but a fold preflop from everyone would've been ideal. If the SB wanted to call off all his money with A9, let him do it when he has 27% equity, not 44%.

Ad9d OOP is a standard 3-bet pre-flop ? I was in CO with J6o and folded pre-flop btw. I can understand raising with Ad9d on the flop with the gutshot (not open ender) and the flush draw but raising A9 sooted seems a little bit to bold a move pre-flop. From my understanding, QQ committed himself with the bet on the flop, which could be pretty standard. Question is, is this a profitable move ? If you can put the opponent on AA/KK, well obviously no. But if he has Ax (which he did on that example), it's safe/okay since you will most of the time take the pot on the flop here. And, don't forget the possibility someone called and flopped a set...

Of course, on this particular situation, Ad9d was a pretty good hand to have on that flop and QQ got lucky nothing hit indeed. But again, I'm not inclined to 3-bet pref-flop with that hand...

To keep things going on, here's another hand :

Full Tilt Poker Game #18690909042: Table Mach 10 - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:22:01 ET - 2010/02/22

Seat 1: MP2 ($7.99)
Seat 2: HiJ ($11.11)
Seat 3: CO ($6.34)
Seat 4: Button ($10.21)
Seat 5: SB ($14.22)
Seat 6: BB ($16.03)
Seat 7: UTG ($10.05)
Seat 8: UTG+1 ($14.98)
Seat 9: MP1 ($9.26)

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to CO [Ad Qd]
UTG folds
UTG+1 folds
MP1 folds
MP2 folds
HiJ folds
CO raises to $0.35
Button raises to $0.90
SB folds
BB folds
CO calls $0.55

*** FLOP *** [4c 7d 5d]

CO checks
Button bets $1.20
CO raises to $5.44, and is all in
Button calls $4.24
CO shows [Ad Qd]
Button shows [Ah As]

*** TURN *** [4c 7d 5d] [9s]
*** RIVER *** [4c 7d 5d 9s] [Kc]

CO shows Ace King high
Button shows a pair of Aces
Button wins the pot ($11.98) with a pair of Aces

What are your thoughts here ?

[travz21]

There's nothing standard in Rush. People just play how they think is right and 90% of the time they make retarded moves.