Am I a complete fool here ?

[CallifyouDare]

Well, this is a Rush Poker $10PLO Hand and I have no previous encounter with the players of the table.

Full Tilt Poker Game #19033607110: Table Celerity (6 max) - $0.05/$0.10 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 0:14:40 ET - 2010/03/07
Seat 1: Hero ($7.96)
Seat 2: Button ($4.14)
Seat 3: SB ($12.15)
Seat 4: BB ($15.57)
Seat 5: UTG ($7.99)
Seat 6: UTG+1 ($12.69)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [K 5 4 6]
UTG folds
UTG+1 raises to $0.35
Hero calls $0.35
Button calls $0.35
SB calls $0.35
BB folds

*** FLOP *** [8 7 4]
UTG+1 bets $0.75
Hero ??

So I probably got lucky to flop the current nut straight and I think I'm feeling safe about the eventual flush drawers since I hold 2 hearts in my hand. Not saying that a flush may not come out on turn or river though, just that with one flush drawer, 6 hearts are already out => 7 hearts remaining, and even less if anyone had one or if there are more than 1 flush drawer. AAAAAAnd I almost forgot I have an open-ended straight flush draw which means the 4 and the 9 can be counted out of the flush drawers outs.

Anyway, let's consider the options :

- Fold
Yeah right, like I'm folding this....

- Call
And take the risk that the turn makes a greater hand for someone ? The hands I don't wanna let improve are flush draws, straight draws and sets. With that many hands that could beat me on the turn, calling isn't a good choice IMO. But maybe one could advise me to call and see what the turn brings and act accordingly ?

- Raise
That's the choice I'm naturally inclined to make, but maybe I'm just a fool at PLO and thus, I'm asking what would you do here ?

Thanks for the input.

[C8H10N4O2]

You have the nuts with the redraw to the absolute nuts which happens to include blockers for the better flush draw... I'm not sure why you would think raising was a bad choice, especially since you aren't even playing full stacked.

[CallifyouDare]

I'm only a beginner at PLO, and I've lost a lot owing to me raising when I had flopped a made hand that only gets p0wn3d on later streets by chasers... But you're right, this time, I have 2 killer outs (4 & 9) which should be enough for me to opt for raising without regretting it, whatever the outcome. Is it the general consensus for this kind of situations at PLO ? If so, does a pot raise also hit the general consensus ?

[travz21]

Flopping the nuts with redraws is a spot I have nightmares about. Not sure what you should do here.

[CallifyouDare]

I might sense an ounce of sarcasm in your post travz21, but I'll just proceed as if there wasn't. I'm just beginning to play PLO so I don't have a grasp of what is standard here and I'm just asking for opinions. I'll post the rest of the hand after a couple of answers and hopefully there will be more discussion.

[keanosdog]

I might sense an ounce of sarcasm in your post travz21, but I'll just proceed as if there wasn't. I'm just beginning to play PLO so I don't have a grasp of what is standard here and I'm just asking for opinions. I'll post the rest of the hand after a couple of answers and hopefully there will be more discussion.

he's teling you this.

BET BET BET.

if no one has anything they'll fold.

if they have something they're accepting bad odds to catch.

if the board pairs and they bet, you can be fairly sure they've made a house and can get away fairly easy.

if someone has flush draw and you hit SF then you win big, particularly if ace flush comes.

where as if you don't bet, anything can happen. it's PLO. the turn card could change a lot. might make someone 3 of a kind, and they only have to call one bet to make a house.or give them redraws tohigher straights etc. and it won't be an expensive bet as you didn't be tthe flop. hard to get somone of a hand in PLO with one bet. particulary the fish you're likely to encounter at $10 PLO.

[C8H10N4O2]

I might sense an ounce of sarcasm in your post travz21, but I'll just proceed as if there wasn't. I'm just beginning to play PLO so I don't have a grasp of what is standard here and I'm just asking for opinions. I'll post the rest of the hand after a couple of answers and hopefully there will be more discussion.

I don't care what happens in the rest of the hand if you get it all-in on the flop you did your job. If you got it all-in on the turn drawing to only 2 outs, that's obviously not as ideal as the first situation.

[travz21]

Plus a 69TJ hand will be drawing very live. Sets will also more than likely be calling a flop bet. You could also be going up against another nut straight that doesn't have a redraw. You'd be freerolling. You'd essentially win ~36% of the pot if you got it in against that. Betting pot seems fine.

[CallifyouDare]

Thank you for your contributions. As a reward (^_^) here's what happened next in the hand :

Hero raises to $3.75
Button has 15 seconds left to act
Button folds
SB raises to $9.15
BB folds
Hero ???

As you can see, I pot raised on the flop and was re-raised by the button. With $3.86 left in my stack, it's almost a no-brainer that I have to go all-in as you guys mentioned in your posts. Please develop the discussion around the following questions :
- what button can possibly have ?
- had I raised a little less (say to $2 instead of $3.75) do I have fold equity here ?

Thanks for your input.

[liladypokerpro]

I was told once by a very wise person to do a few things once you have seen your hole cards:

- Immediately ask yourself "would I call a raise with this hand?"
--- If yes, then BE the raiser.

- Ask yourself "would I call an all-in shove with this hand?"
--- If yes, then BE the one all-in first. Make the opponent decide and take the pressure off yourself.

She said much more, but these two things come in very handy very frequently. I mention this because it seems very relevant to your above post, where you committed half your stack with the intention of calling the rest off to an all-in re-raise, which dictates that in retrospect you should have just shoved out-right if you were already committing to such an action.

[CallifyouDare]

Hi liladypokerpro,

While I do agree with the general idea behind the wise person's teachings (ie BE the aggressor) I cannot but feel the urge to ask : do you happen, by any chance, to have overlooked the fact this is a PLO (Pot Limit Omaha) hand ? I've raised to the pot on the flop action and I couldn't have raised more because, well, this is Pot Limit...

If you were referring to the action pre-flop well, I guess I could have tried 3-betting but I don't think this was a good idea because there are a lot of people behind me. Does that lead to the conclusion I should have folded pref-flop ? Maybe...

[travz21]

Thank you for your contributions. As a reward (^_^) here's what happened next in the hand :

Hero raises to $3.75
Button has 15 seconds left to act
Button folds
SB raises to $9.15
BB folds
Hero ???

As you can see, I pot raised on the flop and was re-raised by the button. With $3.86 left in my stack, it's almost a no-brainer that I have to go all-in as you guys mentioned in your posts. Please develop the discussion around the following questions :
- what button can possibly have ?
- had I raised a little less (say to $2 instead of $3.75) do I have fold equity here ?

Thanks for your input.

What is the point of this post? Obviously you get it in with the nuts. And why would you ever want fold equity when you have the nuts?

[CallifyouDare]

If I understand everything people said, I should have gone all-in after pot raising the flop. But, if I did play this hand differently (badly according to what's been said), ie if I have called or raised less than pot, can I get away from the hand when facing that re-raise ? I'm just trying to explore all the eventualities and options in the play, even the ones people would judge as bad ones.

[C8H10N4O2]

The worst situation I can come up with here is you are up against 69TJ or 49T4 of which you are close to 30/70 in both... I'm not running the math for pot odds etc, but I just don't see how you are up against these extreme hands enough to ever give you the proper fold equity. I think shipping it in is really the best course you can take, and the re-raise invites it all-in on the flop.

[grimReaper]

I was told once by a very wise person to do a few things once you have seen your hole cards:

- Immediately ask yourself "would I call a raise with this hand?"
--- If yes, then BE the raiser.

True in many cases, but many times I just want to show down a hand for cheap. Unless you're only discussing pf.

[travz21]

I'm still baffled by the fold equity response.

[liladypokerpro]

My bad... I read the whole post but while in my own train of thought I'd completely forgotten it was PLO... that's what happens when u r running on 4 hours of sleep vs 52 hours of work. Multi-tasking is futile lol

[keanosdog]

I'm still baffled by the fold equity response.

agreed trav. poker as i see it is about getting into situations where you have good odds in your favour. when you do put the money in. you're still going to lose sometimes, but thats what keeps the gamblers coming back.

the gamblers don't care that they were 30 to 70 btw. they just remember they won. and they keep putting themselves in those situations. always forgetting the losses and remembering the wins. it's great

[grimReaper]

My bad... I read the whole post but while in my own train of thought I'd completely forgotten it was PLO... that's what happens when u r running on 4 hours of sleep vs 52 hours of work. Multi-tasking is futile lol

no, I agree, raise! I was talking about that advice in a general context, as you know sometimes being in check/call mode in certain marginal situations can be more profitable in the long run.

[grimReaper]

If I understand everything people said, I should have gone all-in after pot raising the flop. But, if I did play this hand differently (badly according to what's been said), ie if I have called or raised less than pot, can I get away from the hand when facing that re-raise ? I'm just trying to explore all the eventualities and options in the play, even the ones people would judge as bad ones.

You have good Omaha instincts: "Will I have the nuts by the river?" But, this case, I'd do everything I could to end the hand right there and win on the flop, i.e reraise! If anything, at the very least I'll force everyone to pay to draw even if there are callers. If you're not comfortable w/ this, then maybe play short stacked w/ all in protection, though you'll lose the ability to force your opponents to fold.

The reason you don't want to just call is that there are 24 bad cards that could hit:

5 hearts (assuming at least one opponent has two hearts to outdraw you)
1 4 (FH)
3 5's (69xx)
3 6's (9Txx)
3 7's (FH)
3 8's (FH)
3 T's (69xx)
3 J's (9Txx) +
------
24 (3 non-heart 9's can be scary too - opponent could have a wrap w/ 9TJx)

The probability you'll see at least one of these bad cards by the river is:

1 - [(45-24)/45]*[((44-24)/44] = 79%

If a bad card hits in a 4 way pot, you're almost guaranteed to be beaten. But if you raise and isolate the pot to one player, you make it less likely that the bad card that hit was a card your opponent was looking for. And if you reraise and no one calls, then even better.