Playing AK?

[alw4ysontilt]

well i think all of us have problem with this hand, playing it post flop on high blinds is very hard so u find urself a lot just shuving it preflop and get called by a pair, then racing.

and there is a problem to play it preflop, even on small blinds, if ur without position, and u re raise it, and u get re raised, call or fold?
playing AK is very tricky, many times ur against a big big hand but u just shuve it in, then u find out ur against AA,KK,QQ.

how is the best way to play AK did any1 find a way?

[grimReaper]

The way you play AK, or any hand for that matter, is NOT falling in love w/ it. If blinds are low, open for 3x raise, or 4x if there is a limper. If there is only one caller, cbet 3/4 pot on any appropriate flop. If you get reraised fold. It could be a bluff, but give it up - this is poker, you have to take a punch (bluff) once in a while. When the blinds are high, i.e 1/14 or more of your stack, you can shove pf in a tournament. I don't mind racing at all if I'm short stacked deep in a tournament. Many times I might get called by a weaker ace or king, or might be a slight favorite against other hands. As for getting called by QQ, it's still a race, and getting your short stacked all in called by AA/KK sucks, but is also rare.

I know what I said is above sounds pretty simple, and that's because it is. The key is no commitment, be a player.

Maybe I'm taking this too far haha:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDbNBahNNyo"]YouTube- Too Short I'm A Playa[/ame]

[C8H10N4O2]

well i think all of us have problem with this hand

I don't think this is true.

But yeah, like econ said, you can't fall in love with it. If AK goes unimproved, it's only ace high on the river.

[nikon12]

i agree with the above post, i always try, expecially late in tournaments not to put my tournament life at stake pre-flop. If the bet gets raised before your action i normally will just smooth call unless i can easily afford to re-raise. Like he said DONT fall in love with this hand, no need to get into a coin flip situation.

[grimReaper]

Also, just want to add, when you fall in love w/ your hand, you cooler yourself. And as Dew said, unimproved AK is just ace high.

Ace high? Cooler? Something's not right...

Speaking of coolers, I just got busted flopping middle set when my opponent flopped top set on a dry board playing omaha. I even put him on a set, but was pot commited....

[travz21]

I am up against AA like 25% of the time I have AK.

[alw4ysontilt]

well i get alot of time AA vs AK, and alot of time i get a monster draw and a donk who cant fold AK calls me 50BB shuve with AK high on J85 2 hearts flop, i got 79 of hearts and ofc somehow i miss everything... :S

well i loved the connection u made with the punch ^^.

and ofc i know AK is ace high but many times ur opponent is dominated and im just scared to put a continuation bet out there...
thats why its so tricky for me..

[keanosdog]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc1AhaTIHSs"]YouTube- High stakes poker season 5: Tom "durrr" Dwan vs Howard Lederer[/ame]gabe gets it right at 3:!5 .all in or fold. the call is just awull and leaves howard in no mans land.

[alw4ysontilt]

that video show's how hard is to play AK... if u miss a flop u never know where u are in the hand, if u get raised u need to fold, and even if u hit, u know ur opponent knows ur playing big ace so if he got u beat, hard to fold.

[C8H10N4O2]

that video show's how hard is to play AK... if u miss a flop u never know where u are in the hand, if u get raised u need to fold, and even if u hit, u know ur opponent knows ur playing big ace so if he got u beat, hard to fold.

No, that hand just shows exactly what not to do... not how hard it is to play the hand.

[alw4ysontilt]

i must disagree with u dew, if he puts durrr on AA,KK,QQ,JJ he dont wanna risk all his chips without taking a flop, if he misses he can always fold.

he also knows durrr is very aggersive and if he hits he might get paid off too.

[C8H10N4O2]

i must disagree with u dew, if he puts durrr on AA,KK,QQ,JJ he dont wanna risk all his chips without taking a flop, if he misses he can always fold.

he also knows durrr is very aggersive and if he hits he might get paid off too.

No... this is the complete donk way to play the hand against durrrr. (I.e., with scared money)

When Howard gives his chip count, I believe he says $131k more when the pot is at $50,400. Dwan 5-bets Howard to a total of $65,600. Now Howard to call is leaving himself with roughly a $101,700 stack to use in a $134,000 pot. He has essentially no more bluffing power, no idea where he'll be in the hand if Dwan bets out on the flop, of which Howard is going to miss the flop a majority of the time. If Howard does miss, and Dwan moves all in, it puts Howard is a very very awkward position as Howard is having to only call $101,700 for a $235,700 pot. I mean, even if Dwan gets creative and bets out 1/2 the pot, Howard would be making the incorrect play to fold if he believes he has at least 6 outs... but if he calls half the pot, he's leaving himself with basically no chips. Because of this, Howard checks the flop because he essentially will be giving Durrrr the same odds to call with such a wide range of hands. Howard calling Durrrr's 5-bet creates a ridiculous amount of trouble for himself. If he put Durrrr on AA, KK he should probably be folding anyway.

Even if he misses the flop and if Durrrr only has JJ, Howard is still looking at 25% to win on the turn or river. He will no longer have odds to call, where if he gets it in pre-flop, he's not making the wrong play. He also can't really shove any flop he misses if he's putting Durrrr on these hands. Since he will be missing a majority of flops, it seems like a really weak play to be calling a 5-bet with AKs. Obviously flipping is not ideal, but once the pot got to that size, I feel like calling is the absolute worst thing Howard could have done.

You include AA and KK in your reasoning, but if an A or K hits on the flop, Durrrr would have setted up with 50% of the range you have given him. Even by your own analysis, Howard should be folding... unless Howard thinks Durrrr is being overly aggressive, of which case, he should take a stand and move all-in after Durrr 5-bet him. Instead though, he plays with "scared" money and just flats pre-flop, which loses the hand for him. Essentially, showing the exact way not to play AKs.

[travz21]

i must disagree with u dew, if he puts durrr on AA,KK,QQ,JJ he dont wanna risk all his chips without taking a flop, if he misses he can always fold.

he also knows durrr is very aggersive and if he hits he might get paid off too.

If he puts Durrrr on KK+ he should fold. Anything else and he should 6bet shove. Calling out of position and wanting to play post flop against Durrrr with a hand that's way ahead of his range but also misses the flop 2/3rds of the time is LOL bad.

[C8H10N4O2]

If he puts Durrrr on KK+ he should fold. Anything else and he should 6bet shove. Calling out of position and wanting to play post flop against Durrrr with a hand that's way ahead of his range but also misses the flop 2/3rds of the time is LOL bad.

Hahaha, such a more concise way of saying what I was trying to say.

[keanosdog]

i must disagree with u dew, if he puts durrr on AA,KK,QQ,JJ he dont wanna risk all his chips without taking a flop, if he misses he can always fold.

he also knows durrr is very aggersive and if he hits he might get paid off too.

if he puts durr on those hands he must fold.

fi he doesn't put durr on thsoe hands he should shove.

he does the ONE THING HE SHOULDN'T DO.

[C8H10N4O2]

Another example of how not to play AK...

Table '301010075 79' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
DiscoSul: posts small blind 10
DFCZ562: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
DiscoSul: calls 10
DFCZ562: raises 160 to 180
DiscoSul: calls 160
*** FLOP *** [8 7 4]
DiscoSul: checks
DFCZ562: bets 500
DiscoSul: calls 500
*** TURN *** [8 7 4] [4]
DiscoSul: checks
DFCZ562: bets 500
DiscoSul: calls 500
*** RIVER *** [8 7 4 4] [3]
DiscoSul: bets 1820 and is all-in
DFCZ562: calls 1660 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (160) returned to DiscoSul
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DiscoSul: shows [T A] (a flush, Ace high)
DFCZ562: shows [K A] (a pair of Fours)
DiscoSul collected 5700 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5700 | Rake 0
Board [8s 7s 4s 4c 3c]
Seat 8: DiscoSul (small blind) showed [T A] and won (5700) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 9: DFCZ562 (big blind) showed [K A] and lost with a pair of Fours

[alw4ysontilt]

well thanks everybody for the help here i really learned a lot,
now i agree with u guys that howard should have pushed there or fold, no call option for him there.

tell me something, why do i afraid playing AK post flop? i mean if i got 60BB i can re raise it preflop but im afraid dont that, i usualy happy with playing slowball and playing post flop, but i cant play AK post flop, it just always MISS.!

then after i miss i give a coninuation bet, always get raised...
any way to improve that?

[travz21]

well thanks everybody for the help here i really learned a lot,
now i agree with u guys that howard should have pushed there or fold, no call option for him there.

tell me something, why do i afraid playing AK post flop? i mean if i got 60BB i can re raise it preflop but im afraid dont that, i usualy happy with playing slowball and playing post flop, but i cant play AK post flop, it just always MISS.!

then after i miss i give a coninuation bet, always get raised...
any way to improve that?

Some people are born cold. I'm with you.

[alw4ysontilt]

Yeahhh !! some1 is with me D, any1 is against me? :P

[grimReaper]

It seems like everyone but me has berated Howard Lederer for calling there. Well, I honestly don't think it was that of a bad call, I personally would be choosing between calling or folding. In my mind, Lederer put Durrr on kings (who wouldn't?), it was just $30k to see a flop where he could potentially flop an ace or flush/straight draw to win $100k+. Even if Durr didn't have AA or KK, Durr's 5 pf bet made it look like he was pot committed, and it didn't seem like Lederer had any fold equity by shoving.

Here's the math. We analyze what to do pf after Durr's 5 bet, and assume Durr moves all in if Lederer calls pf and checks flop if he misses. We also assume Durr has a pair (not aces though) or AK in these spots, but to make the math simple instead of saying 49-49 for AK vs AK, I just left it as 47-53.

Call: Flop an ace or king if D=QQ or lower pair, or if D = KK, then flop an ace.

E[call | Durr = Pocket QQ or lower pair or AK] = (0.35)(104700) - (0.65)(29300) = 17600
E[all in | Durr = Pocket QQ or lower pair or AK] = (0.47)(235700) - (0.53)(131000) = 41349
E[call | Durr = KK] = (0.18)(104700) - (0.82)(29300) = -5180
E[all in | Durr = KK] = (0.29)(235700) - (0.71)(131000) = -24657


Now using iterated expectation, let p be the probability/frequency that Durr has Kings in these spots.

E(call) = E(E(call | DD)) = pE(call|DD = KK) + (1-p)E(call|DD = QQ or lower pair or AK)
= -5180p + 17600(1-p) = 17600 - 22780p

E(all in) = E(E(call | DD)) = pE(all in|DD = KK) + (1-p)E(all in|DD = QQ or lower pair)
= -24657p + 41349(1-p) = 41349 - 66006p

So E(call) > E(all in) iff 17600 - 22780p > 41349 - 66006p iff p>0.55.

So if Durr 5 bets pf a tight player like Howard Lederer and has kings in these spots at least 55% of time, then it's worth just a call. Now I left out the possibility of pocket aces for simplicity of the math, if we include pocket aces, this makes an all-in shove look worse. So in the end, the decision is between folding or calling.

Also, I assumed risk neutrality, i.e you're completely indifferent in EV neutral situations. This is a fine assumption when you play 500 hands/hr, but when you're playing only a few hands and that too w/ pots that big (that's still a good pile of change to these guys), I'd imagine players would be more risk averse, and would "feel" better off making decision based on their aversion to even some EV+ situations. I know this may make little sense, but risk-aversion/neutrality/seeking is large part of microeconomics and financial/behavioral economics and I'm sure you can google some of the mathematical models. Considering that the math above doesn't take risk aversion, if we put risk aversion into the category, that makes a stronger case for call/fold.

al4ywsontilt-
Cmon, this is just one hand. Are you trying tell me every time you play AK this is what happens to you? If so, you're either playing really bad games or you have a bad image. Anyway, AK is a great hand, it's very easy to cooler people w/ AQ when the flop brings an ace. And hey, you may even cooler a donky w/ AJ/AT!