Online Poker - Keep it ILLEGAL

Thread: Online Poker - Keep it ILLEGAL

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  1. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

    Default Online Poker - Keep it ILLEGAL

    Why? Well, you already pay a 9% fee when you play tournament and already pay rake in cash games. On top of that, do you want to be taxed?

    How much tax are we talking? Well, Uncle Sam takes 35% on short term capital gains (e.g winnings in stock market), and I don't think the politicians in D.C would take it easy on online gambling. The following site provides a little relief as it says gambling winnings are taxed around 25%: http://www.bankrate.com/finance/mone...-winnings.aspx. But still, 25% is a lot!

    What are the benefits of legalizing online poker? Deep down inside, most of us are sure PS and FTP aren't rigged despite our bad beats, so I'm not sure what added regulation will provide. Even while these sites are illegal, we don't anticipate them shutting down to US players any time soon and losing are bankrolls. So is the slight added comfort worth it?

    The only benefit I see w/ legalizing online poker is more competition. But is more competition going to make us better off? Is reducing the tournament rake from 9% to say 5% (which btw would only happen w/ alot of competition) or reducing cash game rake a few % going to make us better off, considering we may end up paying 25% tax on winnings?

    Plus, do we want more competition? Do we prefer one site have 100k and another 200k (sort of like it is now) or 6 sites having 50k player each? It may not matter to those that play holdem b/c it's sufficiently popular, but it will matter to mixed game players. The network effects benefit both the site and the players.

    There are many paradoxical things in economics. For example, there are theories that the current legality of drugs promotes crime! Maybe as poker players, keeping our favorite hobby a "guilty pleasure" isn't that bad after all.

    Thoughts?
  2. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    You're supposed to pay taxes on any gambling winnings anyways. And who would've known....a good portion of the working US already pays 25% of their income to taxes. Nothing would really be different besides the fact that a shit ton of new players will start playing because they'll be able to put money into an account much easier. They will also have peace of mind knowing they aren't doing anything illegally. The player pool will increase dramatically, which is beautiful. I can smell another poker boom.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  3. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by travz21 View Post
    You're supposed to pay taxes on any gambling winnings anyways. And who would've known....a good portion of the working US already pays 25% of their income to taxes.
    Yeah of course, but paying tax on online poker would be enforced, like trading stocks online.

    Quote Originally Posted by travz21 View Post
    Nothing would really be different besides the fact that a shit ton of new players will start playing because they'll be able to put money into an account much easier. They will also have peace of mind knowing they aren't doing anything illegally. The player pool will increase dramatically, which is beautiful. I can smell another poker boom.
    I agree, imo the majority of good players who want to play online are probably playing anyway, it's the not so good players that want to play online who would probably enter.
  4. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Living in UK I enjoy the freedom of choice in which site I play at any given time. I'm forever being bombarded with many different promotions from the many different sites, competition!, pokerstars offer me nothing. My winrate on FTP is probably half compared to say Boss Media network. Keeping it illegal in USA does nothing for the industry. If you're worried about paying taxes on your huge winnings, emigrate
  5. C8H10N4O2 said:

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    Since when is it illegal to play poker online?
  6. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by economist89 View Post
    Yeah of course, but paying tax on online poker would be enforced, like trading stocks online.
    Yeah, you would no longer be a criminal by skimping out on paying taxes. How terrible.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  7. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverstarsVictim View Post
    Living in UK I enjoy the freedom of choice in which site I play at any given time. I'm forever being bombarded with many different promotions from the many different sites, competition!, pokerstars offer me nothing. My winrate on FTP is probably half compared to say Boss Media network. Keeping it illegal in USA does nothing for the industry. If you're worried about paying taxes on your huge winnings, emigrate
    You have to pay taxes in the UK, too. There are a only a few livable countries that don't tax online poker winnings.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  8. pokerbucket's Avatar

    pokerbucket said:

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    Economist - you obviously haven't won enough money from online poker to where you would have to pay taxes on it... yes you are supposed to pay taxes on everything but even if you win a lot right now the IRS will know about it. If you are just a small stakes player than legalizing it won't make that big of a difference tax wise. The problem isn't that tilt and stars want to shut down to US players... the problem is that they might be forced to if the law changes again. In the past sites related to online gambling that have stood up against the government have been destroyed.. look up world sports exchange... remember neteller? By legalizing it 100% you won't have anything to worry about and as an American I would be proud to know that billions of the dollars that these sites are collecting in rake is going back into the economy... u should know that ur an economist
  9. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by travz21 View Post
    You have to pay taxes in the UK, too. There are a only a few livable countries that don't tax online poker winnings.

    Got a link for that? I dont know anybody who has paid tax on their online poker winnings in UK. The last I heard was the bookmakers and poker sites operating in UK pay the taxes on their profits. As long as we dont declare it as income, we dont pay.
  10. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverstarsVictim View Post
    Got a link for that? I dont know anybody who has paid tax on their online poker winnings in UK. The last I heard was the bookmakers and poker sites operating in UK pay the taxes on their profits. As long as we dont declare it as income, we dont pay.
    Right. As long as you don't declare income as income you don't have to pay taxes on it. We can do that in the US, too. It's illegal.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  11. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by travz21 View Post
    Right. As long as you don't declare income as income you don't have to pay taxes on it. We can do that in the US, too. It's illegal.
    It's not income, it's winnings from gambling so nothing illegal. Same as if you won the lottery here, it's not taxable. The Inland Revenue aren't interested in taxing gambling profits as gambling losses would be tax deductible, there's a ton more losers than winners. Much better they tax the guaranteed winners such as the bookmakers, casinos etc.
  12. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokerbucket View Post
    Economist - you obviously haven't won enough money from online poker to where you would have to pay taxes on it...
    I wasn't necessarily speaking for/about myself. Though I do expect to escalate in stakes w/ time.

    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by pokerbucket View Post
    I would be proud to know that billions of the dollars that these sites are collecting in rake is going back into the economy... u should know that ur an economist
    How could I leave this part out lol? My post was measuring benefits only from the perspective of poker players. The government would benefit from added tax revenue, but poker players aren't going to benefit directly from it. As for other economic effects such as employment, I don't see employment changing too much. IMO, any increase in employment from more poker rooms would more or less cancel w/ reduced employment from casinos due to more competition. One could make an argument that employment would slightly decrease b/c online poker rooms are way more labor efficient, and one could make the argument of little to no change in employment b/c legal online poker won't make live players play less in casinos.
    Last edited by grimReaper; 1st April 2010 at 01:00 AM.
  13. C8H10N4O2 said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverstarsVictim View Post
    It's not income, it's winnings from gambling so nothing illegal. Same as if you won the lottery here, it's not taxable. The Inland Revenue aren't interested in taxing gambling profits as gambling losses would be tax deductible, there's a ton more losers than winners. Much better they tax the guaranteed winners such as the bookmakers, casinos etc.
    From what I have run across, it seemed like if gambling winnings were your only source of income, it might be taxable, but even then things had been overturned in appeals cases in the UK. As long as you have any other form of income though, it's definitely not taxable. But it seems pretty confusing reading of different cases, because there are a few contradictions.
  14. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by travz21 View Post
    Yeah, you would no longer be a criminal by skimping out on paying taxes. How terrible.
    I'm not sure what you're saying here. You said you have to pay taxes on poker anyway, regardless of legality, I'm saying it's not enforced. So you, like I suppose the vast majority of poker players can get away w/out paying taxes currently. Playing poker is not criminal in most states, but hosting an online poker room is (somewhat). Now if it's legalized, it's likely to be enforced, and you'll be forced to pay taxes.
  15. C8H10N4O2 said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by economist89 View Post
    I'm not sure what you're saying here. You said you have to pay taxes on poker anyway, regardless of legality, I'm saying it's not enforced. So you, like I suppose the vast majority of poker players can get away w/out paying taxes currently. Playing poker is not criminal in most states, but hosting an online poker room is (somewhat). Now if it's legalized, it's likely to be enforced, and you'll be forced to pay taxes.
    The vast majority of poker players get away without paying taxes because the vast majority are losing players. I would guess that if your primary/only income is poker, it's a lot harder to get away with it than you think.

    Hosting an online poker room is illegal if you reside in the US. It's not illegal for PokerStars or Full Tilt to host an online poker room.
  16. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by dew12109 View Post
    From what I have run across, it seemed like if gambling winnings were your only source of income, it might be taxable, but even then things had been overturned in appeals cases in the UK. As long as you have any other form of income though, it's definitely not taxable. But it seems pretty confusing reading of different cases, because there are a few contradictions.
    I agree it's confusing.

    In short, gambling is a recreation and not a trade, as such it's exempt from Income Tax.

    Many professional gamblers here do so legitimately without paying taxes. The taxman is well aware if he charges tax on winnings, he's also gonna have to pay out on losses. Given most gamblers lose anyway it's in the taxman's better interest to just put him in the non-employed category from the start. As long as he is using his own money to gamble, all the taxman will ask is he pays his voluntary National Insurance Contributions and keeps his records up to date. So long as the taxman is convinced he isn't trading eg running a card room as opposed to simply playing in a card room, it's very unlikely he'll get bothered.
  17. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverstarsVictim View Post
    The taxman is well aware if he charges tax on winnings, he's also gonna have to pay out on losses. Given most gamblers lose anyway it's in the taxman's better interest to just put him in the non-employed category from the start.
    I don't know anything about UK tax law, but are you sure this is true? Definitely not true about the US.
  18. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by economist89 View Post
    I don't know anything about UK tax law, but are you sure this is true? Definitely not true about the US.
    Likewise I dont know about US tax law. Here taxes work both ways where on a bad month/year/whatever period you can claim tax relief/rebate. It'd be chaos if all those gamblers who lost their salaries in the bookies started putting in claims against their losses.
  19. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverstarsVictim View Post
    Likewise I dont know about US tax law. Here taxes work both ways where on a bad month/year/whatever period you can claim tax relief/rebate. It'd be chaos if all those gamblers who lost their salaries in the bookies started putting in claims against their losses.
    Actually nevermind. US will give a tax rebate up to $3k for capital gains losses, not sure if there's a similar law on gambling, and not sure if they'll run a similar program for online gambling. Curious, what's the max for tax rebate in UK?
  20. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by economist89 View Post
    Actually nevermind. US will give a tax rebate up to $3k for capital gains losses, not sure if there's a similar law on gambling, and not sure if they'll run a similar program for online gambling. Curious, what's the max for tax rebate in UK?
    To be honest I dont have a clue to max rebates etc, I just pay what I'm told to pay when to pay etc. As long as it's not excessive I'll just hate it a little.

    I will add, my previous posts have made the UK taxman sound generous, he certainly isn't, he's just not a fool. If a professional gambler crosses the line into trading, you can be sure he'll get stung.
  21. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by economist89 View Post
    not sure if there's a similar law on gambling
    Did some research, gambling and taxes:
    http://www.wwwebtax.com/deductions_m...ing_losses.htm

    Basically, any losses can deducted up to any winnings, i.e if I win $x+y but lose $x, I can deduct $x from taxes, and only pay taxes on the net $y. However, unlike capital gains, gambling losses don't carry over.

    One small detail, see #4 here:
    http://www.ehow.com/how_2178248_gamb...eductible.html
  22. C8H10N4O2 said:

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    This was a pretty big deal to Tom Dwan lately I believe. If I remember right, he was pretty frustrated because he had those huge losses late in '09, and then won a bunch of it back in '10 but not even all of it, and had to pay taxes on all the winnings.
  23. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    Not being able to deduct losing years from future winning years is total bs. Or not being able to get tax money back from a winning year if you just had a losing year. Paying taxes on a million bucks profit in year 1 and then losing 800k in year 2 would seem like you're doing pretty good in the poker world. You'd be up 200k in 2 years of work. But in real life you'd be down ~300k. I'd say the government has the house edge on us.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  24. C8H10N4O2 said:

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    The government not only has a house edge, but they have a HUGE house edge.
  25. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    The American psyche...it's better than emigrating
  26. WeightGain3000 said:

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    Riverstarsvictim, i read this on onlinecasinoking...

    Here is a question that we keep getting asked, so we will try and do our best to answer it. For a definitive answer, always speak to a tax lawyer.

    If you win at an online casino, bingo, poker or sports betting site and you live in the UK, do you need to declare it to the taxman? Will the Inland revenue take its share?

    Well, we have investigated this pretty thoroughly and we believe that, unlike the US, there is no tax to pay on gambling winnings in the UK and that includes casino, bingo, poker and sports winnings.

    The main reason gambling is not taxed in the UK is because of the way UK tax law works. If the taxman started taxing winnings he would also need to offset losses before working out personal income tax- and this would be a can of worms.

    The government try and get their money at source from the betting companies (which is only possible if the operation is based in the UK). Many companies have moved to overseas regulated jurisdictions such as Gibraltar.

    For land based betting, Mr Tax Man scoops 15% of the bookies gross profit as a levy and up to halfof a casinos gross. Bingo clubs pay VAT. Lotteries pay up front. The UK government go after the gambling businesses for tax and not the winners as they consider that taxing winners would help kill the overall gambling golden tax goose.

    Compare that to the US where gambling wins are taxed by both the IRS and by many states and must be declared as income on your tax return. BUT, all losses from all forms of gambling are deductible as an for recreational players, limited to the amount of winnings declared.

    Professional gamblers have to file as a self-employed business.

    this was written in october 2009 so im hopefull im not breaking the law by not paying tax on my earnings.
    Also my accountant (dodgy dude) says its not taxable in the U.K
  27. averagejoe said:

    Default confused

    Hi all,

    I am of the understading too that poker winnings are not 'taxable' in the UK, the 'taxman' has been hounding me for 2 years. i have spoken to many diffrent people in my local tax office, all give me a diffrent answer, the latest is something to do with self employed and a section 4 of some 'ACT' or other.

    We now stand at the point of me asking to see the Law of me paying tax on my winnings, the last response was 'go to the local library' and find the law myself, i kid you not!!!

    There are other avenues to go down, such as understanding, the meaning of legal as opposed to Lawful. and illegal to Unlawful, combine this with ACTS of parliment and various statutes, and legislation, and before you know it, you can become quite knowledgable in LAW, and the diffrence between Legal and Lawful etc.

    I think that the 'taxman' depends on my/our ignorance and in my case was hoping i would wilt and cave in to their threats and intimidation, ( i always thought thtreats and intimidation was unlawful?)

    I have stuck to my guns, and havant heard anything for 2 months now.

    One tidbit of advice, if anything is addressed to you, with your name in CAPITAL LETTERS, ie JOHN DOE, ignore it, DO NOT OPEN IT, write on the front incorrectly addressed, as opposed to wrong address, as all correspondence correctlly addressed should read John Doe, and not JOHN DOE. If you reply to any forms in CAPITAL LETTERS, you are accepting a contract.

    This is why all forms requiring juristriction ask you to fill them in, in CAPITAL LETTERS, ( your legal fiction)
  28. C8H10N4O2 said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by averagejoe View Post
    One tidbit of advice, if anything is addressed to you, with your name in CAPITAL LETTERS, ie JOHN DOE, ignore it, DO NOT OPEN IT, write on the front incorrectly addressed, as opposed to wrong address, as all correspondence correctlly addressed should read John Doe, and not JOHN DOE. If you reply to any forms in CAPITAL LETTERS, you are accepting a contract.

    This is why all forms requiring juristriction ask you to fill them in, in CAPITAL LETTERS, ( your legal fiction)
    Hmmm, I just signed a ton of different agreements...just for the pages that required my signature/initials, in the last week I've had somewhere around 30-40 pages of forms that are legally binding and not a single one asked me to write my "legal fiction" in all capital letters. They did require me to print my name, sign and date them, but never anything in all caps.
  29. averagejoe said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by dew12109 View Post
    Hmmm, I just signed a ton of different agreements...just for the pages that required my signature/initials, in the last week I've had somewhere around 30-40 pages of forms that are legally binding and not a single one asked me to write my "legal fiction" in all capital letters. They did require me to print my name, sign and date them, but never anything in all caps.
    here in the UK, all government dept forms 'request' that you fill in all details in capitals, except your signature, lol.

    as a matter of interest dew, when the mail arrived, addresed to you, was your name in capitals?

    yes it sounds funny, but one quick glance at blacks Law dictionary informs us that the capitalisation of ones name converts it to a legal fiction/corporation, ie the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA also THE UNITED KINGDOM is a CORPORATION, thats a business.
  30. C8H10N4O2 said:

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    Nope, sure wasn't capitalized... however, these are pretty legally binding contracts and whatnot that I'm signing at the moment.
  31. averagejoe said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by dew12109 View Post
    Nope, sure wasn't capitalized... however, these are pretty legally binding contracts and whatnot that I'm signing at the moment.
    as long as they are not lawfully binding contracts, then you dont have anything to worry about do you? Unless you do not fully understand the diffrence between legally and Lawfully, LOL good luck anyway.
  32. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by averagejoe View Post
    Hi all,

    I am of the understading too that poker winnings are not 'taxable' in the UK, the 'taxman' has been hounding me for 2 years. i have spoken to many diffrent people in my local tax office, all give me a diffrent answer, the latest is something to do with self employed and a section 4 of some 'ACT' or other.

    We now stand at the point of me asking to see the Law of me paying tax on my winnings, the last response was 'go to the local library' and find the law myself, i kid you not!!!

    There are other avenues to go down, such as understanding, the meaning of legal as opposed to Lawful. and illegal to Unlawful, combine this with ACTS of parliment and various statutes, and legislation, and before you know it, you can become quite knowledgable in LAW, and the diffrence between Legal and Lawful etc.

    I think that the 'taxman' depends on my/our ignorance and in my case was hoping i would wilt and cave in to their threats and intimidation, ( i always thought thtreats and intimidation was unlawful?)

    I have stuck to my guns, and havant heard anything for 2 months now.

    One tidbit of advice, if anything is addressed to you, with your name in CAPITAL LETTERS, ie JOHN DOE, ignore it, DO NOT OPEN IT, write on the front incorrectly addressed, as opposed to wrong address, as all correspondence correctlly addressed should read John Doe, and not JOHN DOE. If you reply to any forms in CAPITAL LETTERS, you are accepting a contract.

    This is why all forms requiring juristriction ask you to fill them in, in CAPITAL LETTERS, ( your legal fiction)
    Not being a professional gambler I cant advise you further except to say contact other professional gamblers. They can be found online!

    What I will say, if you're a professional gambler, be sure to keep records. You might just have to prove your lifestyle someday.
  33. averagejoe said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverstarsVictim View Post
    Not being a professional gambler I cant advise you further except to say contact other professional gamblers. They can be found online!

    What I will say, if you're a professional gambler, be sure to keep records. You might just have to prove your lifestyle someday.

    H Rivers,

    yes, i have spoken to many 'professional gamblers' although its revealing that insurance companies in general do not recognice 'professional gambler' as an occupation in the UK, at least the ones i have had the misfortune to deal with, LOL. If you have time or the inclination do a google search for Rob Menard, freeman on the land, he will tell you/me all we need to know about our freedoms and Lawful rights, and how this corrupt system works, even the Law society has admitted defeat against this truly magnificent man.
  34. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by averagejoe View Post
    H Rivers,

    yes, i have spoken to many 'professional gamblers' although its revealing that insurance companies in general do not recognice 'professional gambler' as an occupation in the UK, at least the ones i have had the misfortune to deal with, LOL. If you have time or the inclination do a google search for Rob Menard, freeman on the land, he will tell you/me all we need to know about our freedoms and Lawful rights, and how this corrupt system works, even the Law society has admitted defeat against this truly magnificent man.

    Why are you bringing insurance companies to the table?
  35. WeightGain3000 said:

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    Average joe... Do you fill in a tax return and still not pay tax? should i be putting this down as self employed?
    My accountant wont let me show my poker earnings on my tax form as he says i will have to pay tax if i do.

    I think you hit the nail on the head when you said you put up a fight and they didnt persue. If you volenteer it they will take it, but if you bark, they have no real legs to stand on legally.
  36. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeightGain3000 View Post
    Average joe... Do you fill in a tax return and still not pay tax? should i be putting this down as self employed?
    My accountant wont let me show my poker earnings on my tax form as he says i will have to pay tax if i do.

    I think you hit the nail on the head when you said you put up a fight and they didnt persue. If you volenteer it they will take it, but if you bark, they have no real legs to stand on legally.
    Do as anyone should do before doing anything that might jeopardise your well-being. I trust you're paying local taxes on the place you live and you're not claiming anything that might be freely available if you were claiming benefits. Speak to the professional gamblers who have been there and done it.

    One thing you will have to consider is your pension. Weigh it up.
  37. averagejoe said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeightGain3000 View Post
    Average joe... Do you fill in a tax return and still not pay tax? should i be putting this down as self employed?
    My accountant wont let me show my poker earnings on my tax form as he says i will have to pay tax if i do.

    I think you hit the nail on the head when you said you put up a fight and they didnt persue. If you volenteer it they will take it, but if you bark, they have no real legs to stand on legally.
    Hi weightgain,

    No i do not fill in any tax return, it is addresed to my PERSON/LEGAL ENTITY so i write on the forms incorrectly addresed. As a flesh and blood human being statutes ACTS of parliment and legislation do not apply to me as long as i do not give my consent. ( the deception here is that if i am not aware my consent is needed, my mere silence is enough to accept juristrication and legisltion.

    you have to make that decision if you want to fill it out or not, i would ask to see the actual Law that states you must pay tax on your poker earnings or other relevent Laws regarding tax on 'gambling winnings'. after all if we dont understand something then one has to ask quesions so we fully understand them to make sure we are not breaking any Laws. ( as there isant any Law requiring us to pay tax then they can never produce the LAW, hence them changing the subject and sending me on wild goose chases. ( be aware that they will try and show you statutes and Acts of parliment, these are not Laws,) ( they are given the force of Law by the consent of the governed) so if you do not consent they do not apply as long as you have claimed your rights as a freeman on the land. be aware that silence or ignorance of the Law is accepted as proof of consent!!!!!!

    If you are asking questions, the assumption in Law is that you dont understand, and you must understand, to continue to uphold the Law, as long as you/me are asking questions then we are not obstructing justice or in violation of any statute or ACTS of parliment. ( notice the word ACT, and that is what it is ACTING.

    ! would guess that your accountant is operating under the assumption of statutes, and if you fill it in, you are accepting their (tax office) contracts, ie rules and regulations.

    The tax office is a revenue collection agency for the corporation, THE UNITED KINGDOM, and as such it is their job to increase revenue for their 'head office'. And you/me until we opt out are seen as an employee of the said corporation, as such as an employee we have to accept their rules and regulations, just like any other employee of any other business.

    I have informed them, the tax office that i will ''conditionally accept all their claims, upon proof of certain things''

    ie

    That i am a person and not a human being, ( the definition of a person in Law is very diffrent to a human being)

    also upon proof of claim (their claim) that there is actually a LAW that requires me to pay etc.

    there is more proof of claims but too long to list here.

    As i say, i am prepared to pay what they claim i must pay, but only after i see and understand the LAW.

    Most accountants work in commercial Law and various other 'laws', ie civil law maritime law etc, but the beauty of it is, england is a Common Law land, and as long as you know what your doing, common law trumps every other law known, which is why the ba*****s try to keep it hidden so well.

    Sorry this reply is so long as i seem to have got a little carried away here.

    best wishes

    average joe
  38. averagejoe said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverstarsVictim View Post
    Why are you bringing insurance companies to the table?
    oh silly me, when i saw professional gambler cited as an occupation, and we were talking about tax, i thought it would add something to the debate, when insurance companies i have dealt with do not recognise professional gambling as an occupation.
  39. averagejoe said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeightGain3000 View Post
    Average joe... Do you fill in a tax return and still not pay tax? should i be putting this down as self employed?
    My accountant wont let me show my poker earnings on my tax form as he says i will have to pay tax if i do.

    I think you hit the nail on the head when you said you put up a fight and they didnt persue. If you volenteer it they will take it, but if you bark, they have no real legs to stand on legally.
    Yes weightgain,

    they have no leg to stand on Lawfully, dont get involved with legal/illegal, only Lawful and unlawful is the Law of the land.

    its no wonder they never taught me the diffrence between legal and Lawful at school, and i only found the true meanings a couple of years ago!!!!
  40. averagejoe said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverstarsVictim View Post
    Do as anyone should do before doing anything that might jeopardise your well-being. I trust you're paying local taxes on the place you live and you're not claiming anything that might be freely available if you were claiming benefits. Speak to the professional gamblers who have been there and done it.

    One thing you will have to consider is your pension. Weigh it up.
    i pay my fair share of taxes, when i buy a bar of chocolate i pay something called VAT (value added taxLOL not much value there) when i pay my utility bills i see i pay taxes there too, the list is endless, i dont pay taxes where i do not, or am not Lawfully bound to.

    Currently i am dispute over council tax, as a freeman on the land i do not have to pay this, unfortunately the jobsmiths at the council office do not understand the Law, as such they are breaking their oath of office as a civill servant (notice the word servant, they are here to serve me, not the other way round, we are all equal under the law btw). they are liable under their own commercial liabilty if they do not uphold the Law of the land, which is actual serious fraud, LOL.

    I do not claim any benefits of any kind, i am a peaceful Law abiding human being. if somebody is claiming something, ie i need to pay taxes on poker earnings, then is it unreasonable to request to see the law. so conditionallt accept their claims, UPON PROOF. ie prove it to me and i will pay, i offered to put £10K into a holding account, and when/if they prove their claims of 'law' then i will pay. but only silence for the moment. I would have thought that if there was any actual Law they are claiming they would have produced it instantly for me and everyone else to see?
  41. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by averagejoe View Post
    i pay my fair share of taxes, when i buy a bar of chocolate i pay something called VAT (value added taxLOL not much value there) when i pay my utility bills i see i pay taxes there too, the list is endless, i dont pay taxes where i do not, or am not Lawfully bound to.

    Currently i am dispute over council tax, as a freeman on the land i do not have to pay this, unfortunately the jobsmiths at the council office do not understand the Law, as such they are breaking their oath of office as a civill servant (notice the word servant, they are here to serve me, not the other way round, we are all equal under the law btw). they are liable under their own commercial liabilty if they do not uphold the Law of the land, which is actual serious fraud, LOL.

    I do not claim any benefits of any kind, i am a peaceful Law abiding human being. if somebody is claiming something, ie i need to pay taxes on poker earnings, then is it unreasonable to request to see the law. so conditionallt accept their claims, UPON PROOF. ie prove it to me and i will pay, i offered to put £10K into a holding account, and when/if they prove their claims of 'law' then i will pay. but only silence for the moment. I would have thought that if there was any actual Law they are claiming they would have produced it instantly for me and everyone else to see?
    First of all, it wasn't a question, I had already put trust/assumed that normal day to day expectations were being met. Secondly, you quoted a reply to WeightGain3000

    Anyhow, of course it would apply to you also and frankly, it's none of my business whether you pay council tax etc anyway. I just put it in as a disclaimer.

    I hope you can keep us updated with whatever happens with the taxman, at best or worst, it is a grey area with current laws. Good luck fella.
  42. WeightGain3000 said:

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    Average joe, Really glad you took the time to write the long email, Genuinely appreciated.
    I dont suppose your based in london are you?
  43. averagejoe said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeightGain3000 View Post
    Average joe, Really glad you took the time to write the long email, Genuinely appreciated.
    I dont suppose your based in london are you?
    your welcome weightgain, no iam not based in london. feel free to PM me anytime, but always check for yourself what I/anybody is saying.

    a useful tool for the meaning of words is blacks law dictionary 5th edition, its free online. its amazing how words we think we understand change their meaning in Law.

    take that word understand for instance, when a police officer stops you and asks you something, he will ask do you understand, what he is actually asking is do you STAND UNDER me, ie are you giving consent to my higher authority!!! so you cannever say yes, because we are are equal in the eyes of the Law.

    when they read you that statement of anything you say may be taken down and used against you in a court of law etc, what they omit to say is, that it will never be used for your defence, only against it.

    good luck, we are all in this together. and dont forget, if you do not know your unalienable rights, then you do not have any.
  44. C8H10N4O2 said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by averagejoe View Post
    your welcome weightgain, no iam not based in london. feel free to PM me anytime, but always check for yourself what I/anybody is saying.

    a useful tool for the meaning of words is blacks law dictionary 5th edition, its free online. its amazing how words we think we understand change their meaning in Law.

    take that word understand for instance, when a police officer stops you and asks you something, he will ask do you understand, what he is actually asking is do you STAND UNDER me, ie are you giving consent to my higher authority!!! so you cannever say yes, because we are are equal in the eyes of the Law.

    when they read you that statement of anything you say may be taken down and used against you in a court of law etc, what they omit to say is, that it will never be used for your defence, only against it.

    good luck, we are all in this together. and dont forget, if you do not know your unalienable rights, then you do not have any.
    How does any of this apply to "keeping online poker illegal" in the United States?
  45. averagejoe said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by dew12109 View Post
    How does any of this apply to "keeping online poker illegal" in the United States?
    some poster early in the thread mentions tax and poker, somebody replies to said tax on poker earnings, hence the law is mentioned, somebody replies with snipits about tax, and the Law, and then other things are mentioned about the Law and our rights.

    i hope that helps.

    what has tax got to do with keeping poker online illegal? what does local taxes have to do with keeping online poker illegal, i dont see mods questioning the early posters about said subject matter.

    when we have posters who do not even understand the difference between illegal and unlawful then perhaps i have mistakenly tried to add my 2 cents worth.

    As the thread opener has a title with illegal in it, perhaps its in everyones intrest to understand at least the diffrence between illegal and unlawful, unless we all want to continue to be bonded slaves.

    nearly every thread on here digresses to other subjects, and i havant seen a ''what has this got to do with that'' from the mods, is there a reason for this.

    best wishes, without ill will and vexation.
  46. averagejoe said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by economist89 View Post
    Did some research, gambling and taxes:
    http://www.wwwebtax.com/deductions_m...ing_losses.htm

    Basically, any losses can deducted up to any winnings, i.e if I win +y but lose , I can deduct from taxes, and only pay taxes on the net . However, unlike capital gains, gambling losses don't carry over.

    One small detail, see #4 here:
    http://www.ehow.com/how_2178248_gamb...eductible.html

    Hi economist,

    that first website sure looks pretty, but amongst all that legal jargon, and links i dont actually see the actual Law that requires USA citizens to pay tax on any earnings poker or work related, the next time somebody accepts their IRS contract, to pay tax could you/they enquire to actually see the Law, it sure would help to clean up the confusion, or perhaps its the confusion they rely on to hoodwink/steal our hard earned money, it reminds me of the emperor has no clothes. LOL.
  47. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by averagejoe View Post
    Hi economist,

    that first website sure looks pretty, but amongst all that legal jargon, and links i dont actually see the actual Law that requires USA citizens to pay tax on any earnings poker or work related, the next time somebody accepts their IRS contract, to pay tax could you/they enquire to actually see the Law, it sure would help to clean up the confusion, or perhaps its the confusion they rely on to hoodwink/steal our hard earned money, it reminds me of the emperor has no clothes. LOL.
    Oh, I was under the impression that taxes must be paid on all sources of income (and that legalizing it would make more enforceable).
  48. C8H10N4O2 said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by averagejoe View Post
    Hi economist,

    that first website sure looks pretty, but amongst all that legal jargon, and links i dont actually see the actual Law that requires USA citizens to pay tax on any earnings poker or work related, the next time somebody accepts their IRS contract, to pay tax could you/they enquire to actually see the Law, it sure would help to clean up the confusion, or perhaps its the confusion they rely on to hoodwink/steal our hard earned money, it reminds me of the emperor has no clothes. LOL.
    Yet another nonsense statement. You'll get completely hosed if you make enough money in poker and don't claim it in the US.
  49. averagejoe said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by dew12109 View Post
    Yet another nonsense statement. You'll get completely hosed if you make enough money in poker and don't claim it in the US.
    well why dont you show us the actual law in the usa that requires usa citizens to pay tax on earnings, poker or flipping burgers. the only nonsense i see, is all this acceptence of hearsay thats its legal this and illegal that, withought anyone having a clue about the difference between legal and Lawful, one poster has dodged this question on this thread, and it wouldant suprise me if you dont know either and dodge it too. Its because of this ignorance that they get away with fleecing mugs who havant a clue whats going on.

    now you may just like to bend over and take whatever the IRS gives you, but im sure others would actually like to see the Law. me for one, with a debt in the usa, of over 14 trillion dollars, these shysters count on peoples ignorance. now if you want to act as a gatekeeper, on here and for them, then thats your choice, but you are doing a great diservice to many.

    the problem is its people making utterly stupid pig ignoranat statements like youll get completly hosed and dont claim it in the US, without having a clue what is going on, and how the deception is working.

    you carry on paying it sonny, you obviously have given your consent to it, others may not be willing to consent without seeing the actual proof ie THE LAW, so do us all a favour and produce it.

    best wishes

    without ill well and vexation.

    averagejoe freeman on the land.
  50. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    It's called "income tax" for a reason. Any incoming money is taxed. We don't get to pick and choose what we want to pay taxes on over here.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.