PLO8 Hand w/ pics: How would you play it?

[grimReaper]

Roughly 40 (out of 150) left, 15 get paid, avg stack at around 7k. To your immediate right is the biggest fish who's playing Omaha 8 for the first time and who has done well eating his own kind - basically he raises pot pf every hand and bets pot on any flop. The hand:

(BB also calls)


Now?

[ProtekYoNuts]

First you say his range is that wide I would have just re raised him preflop and hope for the best. You were double suited with a23 and you werent sitting that deep. I would have tried to isolate him. But after the flop its a tough decision.

[travz21]

I have very limited PLO8 experience, but flatting pf just doesn't seem right. As played, call/shove and hope you don't get quartered when you hit your low 100% of the time. No way I'd fold with 2 people left to act on this drawy board.

[grimReaper]

First you say his range is that wide I would have just re raised him preflop and hope for the best. You were double suited with a23 and you werent sitting that deep. I would have tried to isolate him. But after the flop its a tough decision.

True, if this were no limit, I'd shove. But this was pot limit and I couldn't make it more than 2400 total to go (1000 in pot + 700 call = 1700 more). I started w/ 3700, so I'd basically put 2/3 of my stack w/out seeing a flop, and I'd be pot committed to go all in on any flop, no matter how bad I hit it. If I had min raised, I'm not sure if that would've accomplished much, b/c even though I had good table image, they would've called w/ good cards anyway, whether it was 700 or 1400, so I don't have enough fold equity unless I shove, which goes back to the earlier point. Plus min raising would force me to put in 2/5 of my stack.

Second, even though I had A23x (dbl suited), the big deal is that even if I'm successful in isolating, it's still very hard to scoop, so I'd basically risk almost all of my stack just to divide up the blinds. At the very least by calling, I'm intending to price the big blind in, so at least he'll play some mediocre/garbage type hand, which he does as I'll show you later, and I can split a bigger pot.

[grimReaper]

I have very limited PLO8 experience, but flatting pf just doesn't seem right. As played, call/shove and hope you don't get quartered when you hit your low 100% of the time. No way I'd fold with 2 people left to act on this drawy board.

Low doesn't come that often. I ran A2TT vs. KKTT on a K37 board on a Omaha 8 calculator, and I make low 60% of the time. But, 60% is a best case scenario, considering two players call behind, who most likely have at least 2 low cards, which means the proportion of low cards in the deck is less than or equal to the proportion of high cards in the deck. And if one of them also has A2xx, then I decrease the chance of getting counterfeited, but then I get quartered.

Without giving way their hands, pf I was 45% to either win or tie low, 24% to either win or tie hi. On the flop, I was 56% to win or tie low, and 14% to win hi.

[Dekanter]

I would repop preflop against an opponent that opens that often and with a very wide range. Depends on how often and with what kind of hands he likes to play for a shorter stacks life. If he does it with high only hands I jam a potbet in preflop. If he only plays bigger pots with better hands I would make it 1500-1700 to go to be HU with him and still be able to fold if there is another re-raise behind me on button or in the blinds. If he moves in on your 3-bet i would gamble also I guess, but not necessary.

p.s. the way you played it preflop with just flatcalling the flop is an easy fold I think. If you want to spare some chips with that kind of hand preflop you can very easily lay down on that flop because only way to scoop or quarter one of them would be running clubs or running straight.

[RiverstarsVictim]

Never got into hi-lo myself but I have tried. Playing A2 for low options alone, to date has only got me into trouble. PF against this guy has to be a raise and hope for HU imo, otherwise fold. Your high options just seem too limited multiway. From your previous posts regarding O8 it seems you put too much emphasis on your low hand, like A2 is the nuts. High hand always takes minimum half the pot, low hand is a bonus. I'm happy to be corrected.

[travz21]

A23x double suited is a monster if you can isolate. There is no way you should fold if you raise it to 1500-1700 like dekanter said. Pricing in and iso'ing the chip leader fish actually sounds like the right play pf.

[RiverstarsVictim]

A23x double suited is a monster if you can isolate. There is no way you should fold if you raise it to 1500-1700 like dekanter said. Pricing in and iso'ing the chip leader fish actually sounds like the right play pf.

On what grounds is it a monster? For me a monster is AA2x or AKK2 (both hands being suited of course). Shouldn't the high hand be imperative here?

By 'here', I didnt mean this hand exactly...I'll still stick by fold or raise to isolate.

[grimReaper]

From your previous posts regarding O8 it seems you put too much emphasis on your low hand, like A2 is the nuts.

I've never said that. I put emphasis on scooping, and not playing for just a split (unless it's of course where the split is huge etc).

[grimReaper]

I would repop preflop against an opponent that opens that often and with a very wide range. Depends on how often and with what kind of hands he likes to play for a shorter stacks life. If he does it with high only hands I jam a potbet in preflop. If he only plays bigger pots with better hands I would make it 1500-1700 to go to be HU with him and still be able to fold if there is another re-raise behind me on button or in the blinds. If he moves in on your 3-bet i would gamble also I guess, but not necessary.

p.s. the way you played it preflop with just flatcalling the flop is an easy fold I think. If you want to spare some chips with that kind of hand preflop you can very easily lay down on that flop because only way to scoop or quarter one of them would be running clubs or running straight.

True, in fact I'd say half the time I'm flatting pf and half I'm 3 betting a tad bit above a min raise. But the thing is, if I only have the low covered, I only split the blinds, I'd rather split blinds plus the BB's lose call, or split a pot where the BB and pf raiser battle for high and I sit back getting bigger commission on my low.

[RiverstarsVictim]

I've never said that. I put emphasis on scooping, and not playing for just a split (unless it's of course where the split is huge etc).

For me the emphasis should be the high hand. You had little chance calling PF with your possible nuts on a low hand, either re-raise or fold PF. I hate your call. If I'm wrong sobeit, hopefully others will correct me. Would you call a raise from mid position? You had no equity against someone who just wants to gamble unless you're HU.

[travz21]

Wtf. So A23Tss has a terrible chance to win the high? This hand has a better chance to scoop than a huge portion of chip leader's range.

[grimReaper]

For me the emphasis should be the high hand.

I agree, on the flop, I had no potential for high. Which is why I did this (drumrolls please) :

(I'll show the river soon).

You had little chance calling PF with your possible nuts on a low hand, either re-raise or fold PF. I hate your call. If I'm wrong sobeit, hopefully others will correct me. Would you call a raise from mid position? You had no equity against someone who just wants to gamble unless you're HU.

I'm definetely not folding A23x (dbl suited) pre flop. It has great low potential, good flush potential, and rare but not impossible wheel potential. But I will fold it on the flop b/c I missed all of my high draws, not even 2 pair for more outs, and I was a coin flip to just get half the pot at best, and is some cases a quarter. This goes back to the rule of playing for the scoop.

I didn't reraise for a very good reason which you haven't replied to: like I've been saying, the objective was to price in the BB, b/c A2xx isn't the range of the CL and the BB, so I'm confident that if I make a low w/ my A23x it's going to be the nut low, so by pricing in the BB, I make him fight w/ CL for high, and I get the "rake" so to speak. Having two players going high when I'm locked up for low is heaven in split games, esp this in case where I have the 3 as backup (preflop). Now the only thing that makes this hand a great hand into a mediocre one is that the button also calls, and button was playing decently and wouldn't call "just because."

Would you call a raise from mid position? You had no equity against someone who just wants to gamble unless you're HU.

I would auto fold a 3 bet b/c of my stack, but yes I would call a raise even w/ callers b/c I have that high potential I mentioned earlier. As for equity, I explained above, I'll take half the pot while BB and CL fight it out for high and increase my cut.

[travz21]

I still don't see why you're folding. If the button didn't call pf, would you get in it on the flop?

[C8H10N4O2]

Okay, well I don't know PLO8 very well at all, but how is calling off almost 20% of your stack pre-flop and then folding a long-term profitable play? You aren't that close to the bubble, so I just don't understand how calling that much then folding in a potential 4-way pot on the flop is the best play. Were you literally just playing for a flopped low or flopped ace high flush and then folding or what was the plan here when you factor in losing 1/5 of your stack. Please explain.

[phaul]

I don't know PLO8 particularly well either, but this line seems terrible. Surely if you call pre it's to call the inevitable pot bet on this kind of flop 4-way. What kind of flop are you hoping for?

[grimReaper]

I still don't see why you're folding. If the button didn't call pf, would you get in it on the flop?

Yes, it's the button's pf call that I hated, o/w I have to put in even w/out a high draw. Maybe I caught on to an unconscious timing tell, but I put her on A2xx. This was days ago, so I don't remember the action exactly, but I think she pretty much insta called pf.

[grimReaper]

I don't know PLO8 particularly well either, but this line seems terrible. Surely if you call pre it's to call the inevitable pot bet on this kind of flop 4-way. What kind of flop are you hoping for?

In this 4 way pot:
I would've put in had that 3 been a 4. This way it's really hard to get counterfeited. On flop I was 55% to make low, and as I said to travz, I had a good feeling that even if I won low, I was only getting a quarter of the pot.

Or, if that jack had been a ten, I would've put it in. I can play both the high (ideally improve to full house) and nut low draw.

And of course, I would've loved to see clubs. As for hearts, in general it's very dangerous to draw to non-nut flushes, but in this case it would've been a no-brainer to ship given my chip size.

If 3 way pot w/ BB:
Instacall.

[grimReaper]

Okay, well I don't know PLO8 very well at all, but how is calling off almost 20% of your stack pre-flop and then folding a long-term profitable play? You aren't that close to the bubble, so I just don't understand how calling that much then folding in a potential 4-way pot on the flop is the best play. Were you literally just playing for a flopped low or flopped ace high flush and then folding or what was the plan here when you factor in losing 1/5 of your stack. Please explain.

It had nothing to do w/ the bubble and I know I look very nitty posting this thread, but trust me I knew what I was doing in that fold lol. The key to fold is A) I put button on A2xx, and BB could've also had it and B) I had nothing working for me except nut low draw, which of course gets there at best 60%, and in this case 55%.

To be more precise, I'll go w/ my read and say one of them had A2xx. Then had I called, main pot would've been 3031*4 + 2900 = 15024. 15024/4 = 3756, so profit would be 3756 - 3031 = 725.

I'll use 60%:
EV = 725*(0.6) - 3031*(0.4) = -777.4

Had I not thought I was getting quartered, then
EV = 4481(0.6) - 3031*(0.4) = 1476.2

If p is the probability someone else has A2xx, then using iterated expectation, it's profitable to call in those spots iff:

1476(1-p) > 777p or that p<66%.

As a side note, I don't like running EV calculations for tournaments b/c I feel they're not 100% applicable. EV calculations are good if you assume total risk neutrality, which is a fine assumption if you're playing a cash game w/ strict bankroll management, and plan to play thousands of hands in the future. But in tournaments, once you go broke, you lose your tournament life and all of the time you put in, so there's a sort of risk aversion in playing tournaments that EV calculations don't directly factor in.

Regardless, I obviously didn't run the calculations sitting at the table, but apparently I felt there was a greater than 2/3 chance that of the other 3 players, at least one had had A2xx