PLO8 Hand w/ pics: How would you play it?

Thread: PLO8 Hand w/ pics: How would you play it?

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  1. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

    Default PLO8 Hand w/ pics: How would you play it?

    Roughly 40 (out of 150) left, 15 get paid, avg stack at around 7k. To your immediate right is the biggest fish who's playing Omaha 8 for the first time and who has done well eating his own kind - basically he raises pot pf every hand and bets pot on any flop. The hand:

    (BB also calls)


    Now?
  2. ProtekYoNuts said:

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    First you say his range is that wide I would have just re raised him preflop and hope for the best. You were double suited with a23 and you werent sitting that deep. I would have tried to isolate him. But after the flop its a tough decision.
  3. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    I have very limited PLO8 experience, but flatting pf just doesn't seem right. As played, call/shove and hope you don't get quartered when you hit your low 100% of the time. No way I'd fold with 2 people left to act on this drawy board.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  4. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by ProtekYoNuts View Post
    First you say his range is that wide I would have just re raised him preflop and hope for the best. You were double suited with a23 and you werent sitting that deep. I would have tried to isolate him. But after the flop its a tough decision.
    True, if this were no limit, I'd shove. But this was pot limit and I couldn't make it more than 2400 total to go (1000 in pot + 700 call = 1700 more). I started w/ 3700, so I'd basically put 2/3 of my stack w/out seeing a flop, and I'd be pot committed to go all in on any flop, no matter how bad I hit it. If I had min raised, I'm not sure if that would've accomplished much, b/c even though I had good table image, they would've called w/ good cards anyway, whether it was 700 or 1400, so I don't have enough fold equity unless I shove, which goes back to the earlier point. Plus min raising would force me to put in 2/5 of my stack.

    Second, even though I had A23x (dbl suited), the big deal is that even if I'm successful in isolating, it's still very hard to scoop, so I'd basically risk almost all of my stack just to divide up the blinds. At the very least by calling, I'm intending to price the big blind in, so at least he'll play some mediocre/garbage type hand, which he does as I'll show you later, and I can split a bigger pot.
  5. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by travz21 View Post
    I have very limited PLO8 experience, but flatting pf just doesn't seem right. As played, call/shove and hope you don't get quartered when you hit your low 100% of the time. No way I'd fold with 2 people left to act on this drawy board.
    Low doesn't come that often. I ran A2TT vs. KKTT on a K37 board on a Omaha 8 calculator, and I make low 60% of the time. But, 60% is a best case scenario, considering two players call behind, who most likely have at least 2 low cards, which means the proportion of low cards in the deck is less than or equal to the proportion of high cards in the deck. And if one of them also has A2xx, then I decrease the chance of getting counterfeited, but then I get quartered.

    Without giving way their hands, pf I was 45% to either win or tie low, 24% to either win or tie hi. On the flop, I was 56% to win or tie low, and 14% to win hi.
  6. Dekanter said:

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    I would repop preflop against an opponent that opens that often and with a very wide range. Depends on how often and with what kind of hands he likes to play for a shorter stacks life. If he does it with high only hands I jam a potbet in preflop. If he only plays bigger pots with better hands I would make it 1500-1700 to go to be HU with him and still be able to fold if there is another re-raise behind me on button or in the blinds. If he moves in on your 3-bet i would gamble also I guess, but not necessary.

    p.s. the way you played it preflop with just flatcalling the flop is an easy fold I think. If you want to spare some chips with that kind of hand preflop you can very easily lay down on that flop because only way to scoop or quarter one of them would be running clubs or running straight.
  7. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Never got into hi-lo myself but I have tried. Playing A2 for low options alone, to date has only got me into trouble. PF against this guy has to be a raise and hope for HU imo, otherwise fold. Your high options just seem too limited multiway. From your previous posts regarding O8 it seems you put too much emphasis on your low hand, like A2 is the nuts. High hand always takes minimum half the pot, low hand is a bonus. I'm happy to be corrected.
  8. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    A23x double suited is a monster if you can isolate. There is no way you should fold if you raise it to 1500-1700 like dekanter said. Pricing in and iso'ing the chip leader fish actually sounds like the right play pf.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  9. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by travz21 View Post
    A23x double suited is a monster if you can isolate. There is no way you should fold if you raise it to 1500-1700 like dekanter said. Pricing in and iso'ing the chip leader fish actually sounds like the right play pf.
    On what grounds is it a monster? For me a monster is AA2x or AKK2 (both hands being suited of course). Shouldn't the high hand be imperative here?

    By 'here', I didnt mean this hand exactly...I'll still stick by fold or raise to isolate.
    Last edited by RiverstarsVictim; 6th April 2010 at 09:51 PM. Reason: change the 'here' bit
  10. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverstarsVictim View Post
    From your previous posts regarding O8 it seems you put too much emphasis on your low hand, like A2 is the nuts.
    I've never said that. I put emphasis on scooping, and not playing for just a split (unless it's of course where the split is huge etc).
  11. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dekanter View Post
    I would repop preflop against an opponent that opens that often and with a very wide range. Depends on how often and with what kind of hands he likes to play for a shorter stacks life. If he does it with high only hands I jam a potbet in preflop. If he only plays bigger pots with better hands I would make it 1500-1700 to go to be HU with him and still be able to fold if there is another re-raise behind me on button or in the blinds. If he moves in on your 3-bet i would gamble also I guess, but not necessary.

    p.s. the way you played it preflop with just flatcalling the flop is an easy fold I think. If you want to spare some chips with that kind of hand preflop you can very easily lay down on that flop because only way to scoop or quarter one of them would be running clubs or running straight.
    True, in fact I'd say half the time I'm flatting pf and half I'm 3 betting a tad bit above a min raise. But the thing is, if I only have the low covered, I only split the blinds, I'd rather split blinds plus the BB's lose call, or split a pot where the BB and pf raiser battle for high and I sit back getting bigger commission on my low.
  12. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by economist89 View Post
    I've never said that. I put emphasis on scooping, and not playing for just a split (unless it's of course where the split is huge etc).
    For me the emphasis should be the high hand. You had little chance calling PF with your possible nuts on a low hand, either re-raise or fold PF. I hate your call. If I'm wrong sobeit, hopefully others will correct me. Would you call a raise from mid position? You had no equity against someone who just wants to gamble unless you're HU.
  13. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    Wtf. So A23Tss has a terrible chance to win the high? This hand has a better chance to scoop than a huge portion of chip leader's range.
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  14. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverstarsVictim View Post
    For me the emphasis should be the high hand.
    I agree, on the flop, I had no potential for high. Which is why I did this (drumrolls please) :

    (I'll show the river soon).


    Quote Originally Posted by RiverstarsVictim View Post
    You had little chance calling PF with your possible nuts on a low hand, either re-raise or fold PF. I hate your call. If I'm wrong sobeit, hopefully others will correct me. Would you call a raise from mid position? You had no equity against someone who just wants to gamble unless you're HU.
    I'm definetely not folding A23x (dbl suited) pre flop. It has great low potential, good flush potential, and rare but not impossible wheel potential. But I will fold it on the flop b/c I missed all of my high draws, not even 2 pair for more outs, and I was a coin flip to just get half the pot at best, and is some cases a quarter. This goes back to the rule of playing for the scoop.

    I didn't reraise for a very good reason which you haven't replied to: like I've been saying, the objective was to price in the BB, b/c A2xx isn't the range of the CL and the BB, so I'm confident that if I make a low w/ my A23x it's going to be the nut low, so by pricing in the BB, I make him fight w/ CL for high, and I get the "rake" so to speak. Having two players going high when I'm locked up for low is heaven in split games, esp this in case where I have the 3 as backup (preflop). Now the only thing that makes this hand a great hand into a mediocre one is that the button also calls, and button was playing decently and wouldn't call "just because."

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverstarsVictim View Post
    Would you call a raise from mid position? You had no equity against someone who just wants to gamble unless you're HU.
    I would auto fold a 3 bet b/c of my stack, but yes I would call a raise even w/ callers b/c I have that high potential I mentioned earlier. As for equity, I explained above, I'll take half the pot while BB and CL fight it out for high and increase my cut.
  15. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    I still don't see why you're folding. If the button didn't call pf, would you get in it on the flop?
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  16. C8H10N4O2 said:

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    Okay, well I don't know PLO8 very well at all, but how is calling off almost 20% of your stack pre-flop and then folding a long-term profitable play? You aren't that close to the bubble, so I just don't understand how calling that much then folding in a potential 4-way pot on the flop is the best play. Were you literally just playing for a flopped low or flopped ace high flush and then folding or what was the plan here when you factor in losing 1/5 of your stack. Please explain.
  17. phaul said:

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    I don't know PLO8 particularly well either, but this line seems terrible. Surely if you call pre it's to call the inevitable pot bet on this kind of flop 4-way. What kind of flop are you hoping for?
  18. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by travz21 View Post
    I still don't see why you're folding. If the button didn't call pf, would you get in it on the flop?
    Yes, it's the button's pf call that I hated, o/w I have to put in even w/out a high draw. Maybe I caught on to an unconscious timing tell, but I put her on A2xx. This was days ago, so I don't remember the action exactly, but I think she pretty much insta called pf.
  19. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by phaul View Post
    I don't know PLO8 particularly well either, but this line seems terrible. Surely if you call pre it's to call the inevitable pot bet on this kind of flop 4-way. What kind of flop are you hoping for?
    In this 4 way pot:
    I would've put in had that 3 been a 4. This way it's really hard to get counterfeited. On flop I was 55% to make low, and as I said to travz, I had a good feeling that even if I won low, I was only getting a quarter of the pot.

    Or, if that jack had been a ten, I would've put it in. I can play both the high (ideally improve to full house) and nut low draw.

    And of course, I would've loved to see clubs. As for hearts, in general it's very dangerous to draw to non-nut flushes, but in this case it would've been a no-brainer to ship given my chip size.

    If 3 way pot w/ BB:
    Instacall.
  20. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by dew12109 View Post
    Okay, well I don't know PLO8 very well at all, but how is calling off almost 20% of your stack pre-flop and then folding a long-term profitable play? You aren't that close to the bubble, so I just don't understand how calling that much then folding in a potential 4-way pot on the flop is the best play. Were you literally just playing for a flopped low or flopped ace high flush and then folding or what was the plan here when you factor in losing 1/5 of your stack. Please explain.
    It had nothing to do w/ the bubble and I know I look very nitty posting this thread, but trust me I knew what I was doing in that fold lol. The key to fold is A) I put button on A2xx, and BB could've also had it and B) I had nothing working for me except nut low draw, which of course gets there at best 60%, and in this case 55%.

    To be more precise, I'll go w/ my read and say one of them had A2xx. Then had I called, main pot would've been 3031*4 + 2900 = 15024. 15024/4 = 3756, so profit would be 3756 - 3031 = 725.

    I'll use 60%:
    EV = 725*(0.6) - 3031*(0.4) = -777.4

    Had I not thought I was getting quartered, then
    EV = 4481(0.6) - 3031*(0.4) = 1476.2

    If p is the probability someone else has A2xx, then using iterated expectation, it's profitable to call in those spots iff:

    1476(1-p) > 777p or that p<66%.

    As a side note, I don't like running EV calculations for tournaments b/c I feel they're not 100% applicable. EV calculations are good if you assume total risk neutrality, which is a fine assumption if you're playing a cash game w/ strict bankroll management, and plan to play thousands of hands in the future. But in tournaments, once you go broke, you lose your tournament life and all of the time you put in, so there's a sort of risk aversion in playing tournaments that EV calculations don't directly factor in.

    Regardless, I obviously didn't run the calculations sitting at the table, but apparently I felt there was a greater than 2/3 chance that of the other 3 players, at least one had had A2xx
  21. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by travz21 View Post
    Wtf. So A23Tss has a terrible chance to win the high? This hand has a better chance to scoop than a huge portion of chip leader's range.

    HU I'd agree. 4 handed those hearts can land him in trouble. I still say re-raise or fold pre.
  22. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by economist89 View Post
    I'm definetely not folding A23x (dbl suited) pre flop. It has great low potential, good flush potential, and rare but not impossible wheel potential. But I will fold it on the flop b/c I missed all of my high draws, not even 2 pair for more outs, and I was a coin flip to just get half the pot at best, and is some cases a quarter. This goes back to the rule of playing for the scoop.
    Your hand was pretty strong heads up against CL's range. Multiway your hearts land you in trouble too often. I still hate you flat call pre.
  23. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverstarsVictim View Post
    Your hand was pretty strong heads up against CL's range. Multiway your hearts land you in trouble too often. I still hate you flat call pre.
    Given that the CL would shove pot on any flop, the table was playing tight, and no one was going to call w/out a hand, so of the three behind me, I only expected one call at max. Had there been only one call after my call, here's the pf analysis if all chips go in pf:

    2 way w/ CL and I:
    Hi: 50%, Lo 40%
    Pot/2 = 3700
    Hi eq = 1850
    Lo eq = 1480
    --------------------
    Tot eq = 3330

    3 way w/ CL, BB and I:
    Hi: 36%, Lo 40%
    Pot/2 = 5550
    Hi eq = 2000
    Lo eq = 2220
    --------------------
    Tot eq = 4220


    So I'm better of letting someone 1 person in, provided they don't have A2xx. My lo % don't change, and yes, my chances of winning high decrease by 14%, but that's compensated by the fact that there's 3700 more in the pot.
  24. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    How do you know your chances of winning high without any ranges?
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  25. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    The 50% is the actual high percentage, but it really doesn't really matter, in Omaha hi most hands are very close to 50-50 pf. I haven't played close to as much as hi as I've played hi/lo, but when I do, I approach it as a "flop game," i.e not betting pot pf etc.
  26. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    So lots of limping and passive play?

    Also, what's up with Rakeback.com's "Hot Topics" section on the home page? That's the only thing I use to navigate the forums and it's no longer updating. I don't know where I should be adding fluff to the proper threads.
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  27. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    You could say that, though I haven't experimented playing aggressive pf in omaha. Generally speaking, I feel FTP's normal structure doesn't really allow you to commit too much too one pot, whether it be the first level, or the 10th level w/ an average stack. In hi/lo, I'm looking for the virtual nuts anyway, so why invest w/ less information as to how your hand will develop (i.e seeing the flop)?

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  28. dejrfan57 said:

    Default Good Fold

    Most of my Cash Game play both live and online is in O8/b and believe me I have thousands and thousands of hours of play in this game. I have also cashed in top 50 of WCOOP on Pstars twice in Main Event for O8/b. I'm not world class in this game, but I'm way above average. I'm also more of a "feel" player and will let all the analysis above speak for itself. I would have folded, as you did, for many reasons. The"feel" reasons would have been that:
    1. there is no way I'm putting my tournament life all in unless I have a lock on the low and at least a 50% chance of getting a hogger. Playing for a chance at the low, even as good as it looks here, does nothing to get me all in at this point. Thousands of examples of why that's a bad idea!! LOL!!
    2. the fish next to me who just keeps throwing his money in and wins has thus far shown no sign of slowing down his "luck", and I'm not interested in being another victim. His chip stack tells me I don't want to take chances that aren't virtual locks, and I'm not interested in "maybe" getting back a few more chips than I started the hand with.
    3. there is another hand coming to me if I fold. If I go any further there may not be. I'm waiting for the next hand.
  29. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Point 3) is dead on, in the very next hand I caught A2xx, it was HU and I scooped him for a modest double up.

    What is your pf raising range n a multiway pot? Would you raise hands like AA34, A3KK, in 3 way limp pot? I ask because AAxx and KKxx aren't great hi hands in a multiway pot in omaha hi, and if you don't have a lo draw or you miss lo, you're screwed. You bloat the pot and people loosen up in big pots, both betting and calling wise.
  30. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    I probably waited too long, but it's river time:



    Like I imagined, the one to left of me had A2xx, which developed into a monster on the flop. And BB came in w/ garbage as I thought he would in most cases.
  31. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Btw travz, I think I'm gonna play my hands a bit faster pf now. I was tilting in this last tournament, raising 2.5x-3x w/ A2xx's and A3xx's and it worked well, guess tilting isn't all that bad. Obviously this increases the variance (noting that hands like A379, for example aren't that great), but as long as it's followed up by good EV+ play, I think it's much more profitable than waiting until you see the flop to bet.
  32. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by economist89 View Post
    Btw travz, I think I'm gonna play my hands a bit faster pf now. I was tilting in this last tournament, raising 2.5x-3x w/ A2xx's and A3xx's and it worked well, guess tilting isn't all that bad. Obviously this increases the variance (noting that hands like A379, for example aren't that great), but as long as it's followed up by good EV+ play, I think it's much more profitable than waiting until you see the flop to bet.
    Yeah. I agree with that. I was going to mention that along with my other post, but I have no idea how to play PLO8 cash games, much less PLO8 MTTs.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  33. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by economist89 View Post
    I probably waited too long, but it's river time:



    Like I imagined, the one to left of me had A2xx, which developed into a monster on the flop. And BB came in w/ garbage as I thought he would in most cases.
    And how big of an action flop is this hahaha. I wouldn't call a mini wrap with a flush draw "garbage", but I guess when there are 2 others all in you can expect to be drawing dead to a flush pretty often, even in a split game.
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  34. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by travz21 View Post
    And how big of an action flop is this hahaha. I wouldn't call a mini wrap with a flush draw "garbage", but I guess when there are 2 others all in you can expect to be drawing dead to a flush pretty often, even in a split game.
    In Omaha Hi, 589T dbl suited is a pretty speculative hand imo, but H/L it's not that great esp if you have to play for a raise, it's sort of a trouble hand. If high cards come, like TJx or JQx, you're drawing to the butt end of the straight which is suicidal in a multiway omaha pot. One of the worst feelings in omaha is drawing to a straight, making the straight, and then being forced to lay it down. And if low cards come hopefully giving you a straight draw, you'll be splitting the pot usually. And of course, you have virtually no chances of winning low. And baby flushes are very dangerous to play, they're sort of a check down or min value bet type of hand, which isn't that profitable when you make the flush, that is if you make the flush. Basically, what's good is all low, all high, or a combination, but never middle cards.
  35. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    ...also, you could make the argument then when I play a weak A2xx, like A279, I'm only playing for half. That's true, but I'll make the winning low more often then I'll make the winning high w/ connected middle cards. Second, if I have a feeling I'm not getting quartered, when I make nut low, I can bet it ultra aggressively in PL/NL forcing my opponent to fold marginal high hands so I can take the entire pot.
  36. dejrfan57 said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by economist89 View Post
    Point 3) is dead on, in the very next hand I caught A2xx, it was HU and I scooped him for a modest double up.

    What is your pf raising range n a multiway pot? Would you raise hands like AA34, A3KK, in 3 way limp pot? I ask because AAxx and KKxx aren't great hi hands in a multiway pot in omaha hi, and if you don't have a lo draw or you miss lo, you're screwed. You bloat the pot and people loosen up in big pots, both betting and calling wise.
    Personally, I don't think a preflop raise is a good decision most times unless I have a double suited hand with an A - K/Q as the two high cards of different suits and a 2 - 3/4/5 for the lows. I don't like only two low cards because if one gets duplicated on the river it can really cost you, and it happens a lot. I would much rather have that kind of hand than AA or KK double suited with only 2 low cards. AA or KK in a multi player hand almost always get crushed. One thing is for sure, no matter how strong it looks preflop, one must have the courage to fold it if you need two perfect cards after flop to make a hand. My observation is that most novices make that mistake until they go broke few hundred times. LOL!!
  37. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by dejrfan57 View Post
    Personally, I don't think a preflop raise is a good decision most times unless I have a double suited hand with an A - K/Q as the two high cards of different suits and a 2 - 3/4/5 for the lows. I don't like only two low cards because if one gets duplicated on the river it can really cost you, and it happens a lot. I would much rather have that kind of hand than AA or KK double suited with only 2 low cards. AA or KK in a multi player hand almost always get crushed. One thing is for sure, no matter how strong it looks preflop, one must have the courage to fold it if you need two perfect cards after flop to make a hand. My observation is that most novices make that mistake until they go broke few hundred times. LOL!!
    Last night I was playing PLO8 tournament, 15 left (12 get paid), blinds at 250/500, was 3rd in chips at around 15k w/ CL to my immediate left, who had 20k and would only raise or 3 bet pf w/ hands like AA**, KK**, A**x where *={2,3,4,5}.

    I got dealt AA4x in MP. I open min raise to 1000, hoping to get it HU against someone. He 3 bets to 3.5k total. I call. Flop is Q97, two spades. I lead out for 1300. And he reraises to 5k. He could've had QQxx, but I had a strong feeling he was doing this w/ AAxx or KKxx which fits his range and was about to make a hero all in, but decided against it and folded.

    How would you have played this? The only alternatives I see are A) folding to the 3 bet or B) checking flop or C) betting bigger. But B) ignores the fold equity I have if he came in w/ 3 low cards or had AAxx or KKxx.
  38. travz21's Avatar

    travz21 said:

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    Why would you ever donk this flop? And for such a pathetic amount? He's raising or calling like 95% of the time.

    If you put him on that 3bet range, why don't you 4bet/get it in?

    If you do just flat, check/folding is the obvious move on the flop. Did you have the As at least? If stacks were deeper you could jam, knowing he won't ever have the nut flush draw and sets shouldn't be in his range. I don't think he'd fold a K high flush draw for only 6.5k more.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.
  39. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by travz21 View Post
    Why would you ever donk this flop? And for such a pathetic amount? He's raising or calling like 95% of the time.
    It wouldn't have been donk all in for several reasons:

    First, I was making a lot small to medium out-of-position defensive bets more than I usually do w/ marginal hand and it was paying off generously, I was seeing and winning w/ marginal hands for cheap plus I had sort of aggressive/loose image, taking advantage of the 4k stacks hoping to make ITM.

    Further, his 3 bet range is strictly AA**, KK**, A***, where *={2,3,4,5}. He showed down these hands probably like 4-6 times (in 80 hands?) after 3 betting and he 3 bets nothing else. Further, he limps weak A2xx, A3xx type hands. Therefore, something like A*Q9/A*TJ is simply not in his range. I'll bet my tuition he didn't flop two pair. The only possibility where I'm beat is QQ**, but I had strong feeling he was making a play w/ KK** knowing that I'm folding A*xx hands (I open raised pf in MLP). (edit) If he has a flush draw then I'm a very small favorite. TJxx or any wrap combo simply isn't in his range.

    Quote Originally Posted by travz21 View Post
    If you put him on that 3bet range, why don't you 4bet/get it in?
    It's not best move. If he has A@xx where @ = {2,3} I'm like 15% to win lo. If he has KK**, then I'm 66% for high. Usually what happens in pf all-in PLO8 pots is the pot gets split. He wasn't crazy, but he'd call and I'm basically risking all of my chips just to split the blinds. And being 2nd or 3rd in chips, I'm not leaving w/out seeing the final table.

    Plus, I can evaluate on flop how strong he really is. The 1300 bet on the high-high-low board should have taken down the pot for me given his range and my range. There are so many playable hands in my range, like A*7Q, A*Q9, A*TJ, A*79, AAxx, KK** etc is in my range, QQ** is the only dominating hand in his range.

    Quote Originally Posted by travz21 View Post
    If you do just flat, check/folding is the obvious move on the flop. Did you have the As at least? If stacks were deeper you could jam, knowing he won't ever have the nut flush draw and sets shouldn't be in his range. I don't think he'd fold a K high flush draw for only 6.5k more.
    True, if I'm really that strong, I'm looking for a check-raise in most cases. The 1300 raise was made for the reason mentioned above.

    I think my aces were red.

    I had 10.5k left. My stack went from like 15k to 10k after that hand. But true, if I were a deeper I could've thrown in a 3 bet. But FTP structure is pretty crap, I was 2nd or 3rd in chips and only had 15 BBs.
  40. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    ...but true, generally people that do reraise all in w/ just aces are donks

    (*reraise w/out any reason )
  41. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by economist89 View Post
    Last night I was playing PLO8 tournament, 15 left (12 get paid), blinds at 250/500, was 3rd in chips at around 15k w/ CL to my immediate left, who had 20k and would only raise or 3 bet pf w/ hands like AA**, KK**, A**x where *={2,3,4,5}.

    I got dealt AA4x in MP. I open min raise to 1000, hoping to get it HU against someone. He 3 bets to 3.5k total. I call. Flop is Q97, two spades. I lead out for 1300. And he reraises to 5k. He could've had QQxx, but I had a strong feeling he was doing this w/ AAxx or KKxx which fits his range and was about to make a hero all in, but decided against it and folded.

    How would you have played this? The only alternatives I see are A) folding to the 3 bet or B) checking flop or C) betting bigger. But B) ignores the fold equity I have if he came in w/ 3 low cards or had AAxx or KKxx.
    I dont get the way you played this hand at all except for the fact you're scared to go broke. What hand are you behind PF? Why are you min raising PF if you want to go HU? Given the lack of redraw potential in your hand you know it's shi'ite before you start. Why play it so half arsed?
  42. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverstarsVictim View Post
    I dont get the way you played this hand at all except for the fact you're scared to go broke. What hand are you behind PF? Why are you min raising PF if you want to go HU? Given the lack of redraw potential in your hand you know it's shi'ite before you start. Why play it so half arsed?
    Are you saying I should've potted pf? I was capping my variance, being 2nd in chips I wanted to see the final table.
  43. dejrfan57 said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by economist89 View Post
    Last night I was playing PLO8 tournament, 15 left (12 get paid), blinds at 250/500, was 3rd in chips at around 15k w/ CL to my immediate left, who had 20k and would only raise or 3 bet pf w/ hands like AA**, KK**, A**x where *={2,3,4,5}.

    I got dealt AA4x in MP. I open min raise to 1000, hoping to get it HU against someone. He 3 bets to 3.5k total. I call. Flop is Q97, two spades. I lead out for 1300. And he reraises to 5k. He could've had QQxx, but I had a strong feeling he was doing this w/ AAxx or KKxx which fits his range and was about to make a hero all in, but decided against it and folded.

    How would you have played this? The only alternatives I see are A) folding to the 3 bet or B) checking flop or C) betting bigger. But B) ignores the fold equity I have if he came in w/ 3 low cards or had AAxx or KKxx.
    I agree with Travz that you played the preflop weak. I would have potted it for sure. However, considering all you have described I would have folded, as you did. To me, your only other choice would be to go all in at this point, but I would never do that based on the odds of making my hand and your position in the tournament. I would like to have the 9 - 10K you still have left and wait for a better opportunity.
  44. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    I definitely would've potted all in if I had short or medium stack. But if you insist my "variance capping" approach is poor, I'll play these hands more aggressively pf and let you know of my results.
  45. C8H10N4O2 said:

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    Auto-fold pre-flop imo
  46. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by economist89 View Post
    Are you saying I should've potted pf? I was capping my variance, being 2nd in chips I wanted to see the final table.
    If you want to see final table then fold PF. You were basically putting in a third of your chips set mining. Nothing wrong with going with your AA, just be prepared to go broke HU. Pot all the way PF or fold.

    Edit to add...I dont mind folding PF if more than 1 villain re-raises PF.
  47. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverstarsVictim View Post
    If you want to see final table then fold PF. You were basically putting in a third of your chips set mining. Nothing wrong with going with your AA, just be prepared to go broke HU. Pot all the way PF or fold.

    Edit to add...I dont mind folding PF if more than 1 villain re-raises PF.
    Thanks, I'll keep this in mind. Btw, it was 1/5 of my stack pf.
  48. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by economist89 View Post
    Thanks, I'll keep this in mind. Btw, it was 1/5 of my stack pf.

    And your silly post flop bet made it what %?

    I think you also need to discount your reads a little. Final 15 = 7 or 8 handed or 5 handed on 6 max. All the more reason to be getting it in PF.
  49. grimReaper's Avatar

    grimReaper said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverstarsVictim View Post
    And your silly post flop bet made it what %?

    I think you also need to discount your reads a little. Final 15 = 7 or 8 handed or 5 handed on 6 max. All the more reason to be getting it in PF.
    How was it silly? I'm not going to repeat everything I wrote to travz, but the only way he hit that flop is if he had QQ** or flush draw.
  50. RiverstarsVictim said:

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    Quote Originally Posted by economist89 View Post
    How was it silly? I'm not going to repeat everything I wrote to travz, but the only way he hit that flop is if he had QQ** or flush draw.
    If you cant see why betting 1300 into a 7750 pot and then folding to a raise is silly then...

    Like you, I cant be bothered.