3bet, turn decision....

[FlipCoach]

Flip got what I was getting at. I'm glad someone did LOL

Yw

Although economist does make some valid points, I liked your logic as well.

[liladypokerpro]

Yw

Although economist does make some valid points, I liked your logic as well.

Thanks. It's just so hard to explain in words what I'm thinking when my mind travels soooo far outside the box sometimes And yes, he always makes valid points, as does Travz, when they both are not being turds LOL you guys!

[travz21]

We assume he's a big of a lagtard, but not awful. So he likes to pump a bit pf. But sees us as a slight nit (not overly so), so if we pump AA, KK too hard, he'll give us some credit and fold with 22-66 (just an example), but if we flat his 3bet, he's very likely to cbet. If we raise his cbet with AA, KK and he folds, we still the extra value from his cbet. If we raise with air, hopefully same thing.

This is what I don't like if we are thinking he's not awful, yet not great. Why are we playing our value hands like our bluff hands? We don't need to balance against these types of players.

The only reason I bring up the "if villain is a good, thinking player" in every hand analysis thread is because otherwise every answer would just be ABC, which everyone already knows. Obviously if we want villain to fold while raising his cbet with air on this flop, we don't want to be raising with our value hands then. The only reason it would be good to balance here is if we're playing a villain that we have metagame with.

[grimReaper]

So you would reraise his cbet w/ {AA, KK, QQ, A7, 67, 78, 33}?

Lillady? .

[grimReaper]

True true. I also lean towards 4 betting pf. I just also think that if we simply raise his cbet, we could get some hands (22, 44, 55, 66, 88) to fold, whereas he MAY have been willing to shove aipf with them. Now maybe he thinks our raise means we can't have AK/AQ, and he folds, and we gain more value than in a flip.

Just throwing it out there....

I disagree about turning AQ, which could be good on the flop (and often is after he checks turn), into a bluff for a few reasons:

1) Unlikely he has that range. Is he really that big of a spewtard to 3-bet {22,44}?

2) He 3-bets, pot is swelled and he's involved enough to continue w/ {66+}.

3) Pot is big and his image is lag. He knows you'll make play, and correctly puts you on a bluff.

4) Flop texture: 377 rainbow. He thinks that you think that flop didn't improve the majority of his 3-betting range, i.e unpaired broadways and most suited connectors, so he correctly puts you on a bluff.

5) People (I guess except for lilady) don't reraise flop cbets w/ nuts on 377 rainbow. He'll correctly put you on a bluff.

[grimReaper]

Thanks. It's just so hard to explain in words what I'm thinking when my mind travels soooo far outside the box sometimes And yes, he always makes valid points, as does Travz, when they both are not being turds LOL you guys!

Where are you thinking outside of the box? I'm not trying to be a turd, but what you're saying is just not consistent. You said you don't see him 4-bet shoving to a raised cbet, so why would you raise his cbet w/ {33,67,78,77,QQ,KK,AA} trying to induce action?

[travz21]

1) Unlikely he has that range. Is he really that big of a spewtard to 3-bet {22,44}?

3betting 22 is better than flatting with 22 out of position.

[liladypokerpro]

Where are you thinking outside of the box? I'm not trying to be a turd, but what you're saying is just not consistent. You said you don't see him 4-bet shoving to a raised cbet, so why would you raise his cbet w/ {33,67,78,77,QQ,KK,AA} trying to induce action?

Because I'm not trying to induce action, I'm trying to induce a fold - because I think he's full of shit

[grimReaper]

3betting 22 is better than flatting with 22 out of position.

Really? Put that much more money in w/ 22? It increases our price to set mine, and we're better off inviting people behind us for better implied odds.

[grimReaper]

Because I'm not trying to induce action, I'm trying to induce a fold - because I think he's full of shit

If he's full of shit, then let him stack off bluffing with a hand he believes he has no show down value w/. I'm not sure you get what I said about balance, unless you're being sarcastic here.

[liladypokerpro]

If he's full of shit, then let him stack off bluffing with a hand he believes he has no show down value w/. I'm not sure you get what I said about balance, unless you're being sarcastic here.

See, no... I want him gone ON THE FLOP... because I don't want to give him the opportunity to catch up. Too many people call themselves letting someone else bet themselves silly to try to take down a bigger pot, only for the lucksack to catch good and backfire. I get the whole "balance" argument and understand it, but it just doesn't apply to what I'm trying to do. Everyone would expect a "balanced" play or "balanced" thinking... I am quite UNbalanced, and damn proud of it

[grimReaper]

See, no... I want him gone ON THE FLOP... because I don't want to give him the opportunity to catch up. Too many people call themselves letting someone else bet themselves silly to try to take down a bigger pot, only for the lucksack to catch good and backfire. I get the whole "balance" argument and understand it, but it just doesn't apply to what I'm trying to do. Everyone would expect a "balanced" play or "balanced" thinking... I am quite UNbalanced, and damn proud of it

But you don't understand, you're literally turning your cards face up when you do this . This may work at micro stakes, hell even I do this against fish who don't understand balance, but against thinking players you're getting owned. And if you raise w/ your nutty hands also, balancing your weak hands, then you obv blow off a lot of value.

We don't call to make a bigger pot, we call to keep pot small. If you want to put more extra money in w/ an unimproved AQ then do so pf.

As for protecting your hand, I'm writing a new thread on that.

[liladypokerpro]

Sorry the only thing I don't understand is why anyone would willingly allow someone else to maintain control of the hand and willingly give them multiple opportunities to catch up on an otherwise dead hand. You guys go ahead and continue your discussion. I'm done.

[grimReaper]

Sorry the only thing I don't understand is why anyone would willingly allow someone else to maintain control of the hand and willingly give them multiple opportunities to catch up on an otherwise dead hand. You guys go ahead and continue your discussion. I'm done.

B/c it's hard to play poker when your hands are turned face up.

Lol, if there hand is dead then why are you afraid of them catching up?

Tbh, I don't think you understand the importance of what I'm trying to convey. That's fine.

This thread is somewhat relevant to the discussion: http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...ome-donk-9416/

[travz21]

Really? Put that much more money in w/ 22? It increases our price to set mine, and we're better off inviting people behind us for better implied odds.

Setmining is severely overrated. Folding is a better option than calling.

[liladypokerpro]

B/c it's hard to play poker when your hands are turned face up.

Lol, if there hand is dead then why are you afraid of them catching up?

Tbh, I don't think you understand the importance of what I'm trying to convey. That's fine.

This thread is somewhat relevant to the discussion: http://www.rakeback.com/poker-forum/...ome-donk-9416/

*sigh* I said I was done, yet more questions...

Just because a hand is dead, doesn't mean it can't come alive with the flip of a community card, hence why I don't want it to go any further when I myself hold nothing but A high... that's not fear that's knowing the possibilities and being realistic.

I really wish you'd stop assuming I don't understand you just because my thinking and methodology are different. Just because I wouldn't do what you'd do, doesn't mean I don't comprehend plain English. NOW... I'm done.

[grimReaper]

*sigh* I said I was done, yet more questions...

Just because a hand is dead, doesn't mean it can't come alive with the flip of a community card, hence why I don't want it to go any further when I myself hold nothing but A high... that's not fear that's knowing the possibilities and being realistic.

I really wish you'd stop assuming I don't understand you just because my thinking and methodology are different. Just because I wouldn't do what you'd do, doesn't mean I don't comprehend plain English. NOW... I'm done.

It's not about understanding English, it's about understanding the concepts. There was a time where I would've raised AQ also.

Anyway, no point in continuing this discussion.

[liladypokerpro]

It's not about understanding English, it's about understanding the concepts.

Jesus Christ... nit picking much? I just can't say anything that you won't find a way to pick apart. I'm not a moron, so stop talking to me like one. I said I understand - just accept that it IS possible for someone to understand and disagree at the same time. I have given you NO guff about your opinion whatsoever. I've not questioned your reasons, your methods, or your thinking - but yet all of a sudden I have no comprehension skills simply because I don't agree? Gee, thanks.

Beginning to clearly understand now why there are so few people posting in the forums.

Enough is enough. Good night.

[grimReaper]

lillady -
First, you need to calm the hell down. The reason why this has carried on this far is b/c your responses don't make sense, like post #28 and #31, so much for understanding "plain English." Also, I WANT you to question my thinking. It's not an offense to do so.

Even travz says reraising flop doesn't make sense. And frankly, Flip is just being nice to you.

Flip -
How did it play out? What was he holding?

[liladypokerpro]

I AM calm, I'm just pissed. I DON'T appreciate someone talking to me like I'm ignorant / stupid, then thinking so much of themselves as to speak on others' behalves. You need to step down a notch or two from your pedestal before you end up with a nose bleed. Your opinion (just like everyone else's) is not the end all-be all of opinions. As for questioning your ideas, NO... I will not ever do that, because I know that no 2 people play alike, so opening that can of worms is just unnecessary. Now please, if you want me to compose myself, I'd suggest NOT responding with anymore of your jibes towards me. Thanks.