Weird hand vs. a Donk

[FlipCoach]

Ok so been keeping up playing a bit on the weekends on DoylesRoom. Came across a donk today and the hand follows. I'll post to the flop and then see what you guys think.

Background: Basically the guy was pretty loose.. one of the first pots I played with him, he showed me a J-high bluff, but then proceeded to limp almost every pot, so i decided I needed to play a lot of pots with him...

Hand

$0.25/$0.50 No Limit Holdem
cake-poker/">CakePoker
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG KAIK***2 ($30)
UTG+1 kgab***3 ($25)
CO high***4 ($35.55)
BTN Hero ($57.61)
SB Bura***10 ($48.40)
BB Xo39***1 ($46.20)

Pre-Flop: ($0.75, 6 players) Hero is BTN 4 3
KAIK***2 calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.50, Bura***10 calls $0.25, Xo39***1 checks

Flop: J 4 9 ($2, 4 players)
Bura***10 checks, Xo39***1 checks, KAIK***2 checks, Hero bets $1, Bura***10 folds, Xo39***1 folds, KAIK***2 calls $1

Turn: 6 ($4, 2 players)


Ok so I decided to make a small bet in position and hope to iso the fish since I had bottom pair, I didn't think the blinds did.

So now whats the move on the turn?

Will post more later after I get a few reponses....

[irishpkr]

Flop pre, check flop, check turn...

(Flop pre = fold pre )

[phaul]

If that was meant to be

Fold pre, check flop, check turn...

then +1.

[irishpkr]

If that was meant to be



then +1.

I typo bad Earlier I told a friend I doubled flopped some guy then rivered TP, he was like, huh? Oh double FLOAT

[liladypokerpro]

check flop, check turn...

^ this. I don't like getting too involved with bp against a player like this - in position or not. Positional play depends a lot on whether or not the opponent understands what's going on. If this guy is as bad a donk as you imagine him to be, then it's very likely he's oblivious to all but the board and whatever is in his hand. If he's got any piece of the board, or a draw of any kind, he is going to call no matter what. Bp with a crap kicker is not what I want to be holding at showdown in a case like this.

@ irish - I didn't quote the whole thing because if he folded pre, then there would be no possibility to check any other streets But... since he got himself into the hand, I went ahead and agreed with the checking lol Folding pre would have been 1st choice tho, imo.

[FlipCoach]

^ this. I don't like getting too involved with bp against a player like this - in position or not. Positional play depends a lot on whether or not the opponent understands what's going on. If this guy is as bad a donk as you imagine him to be, then it's very likely he's oblivious to all but the board and whatever is in his hand. If he's got any piece of the board, or a draw of any kind, he is going to call no matter what. Bp with a crap kicker is not what I want to be holding at showdown in a case like this.

@ irish - I didn't quote the whole thing because if he folded pre, then there would be no possibility to check any other streets But... since he got himself into the hand, I went ahead and agreed with the checking lol Folding pre would have been 1st choice tho, imo.

First off, I honestly don't know what "bp" means... please explain. (I will never pretend to know everything, fyi)

Secondly - and this isn't directed at only you lilady, but I must emphasize again that I wanted to play tons of pots against this guy. IMO, of you aren't doing this against ultra fish and just waiting for them to pay you on big hands you're making the following mistakes:

1) The fish see there's no action at the table, and they might leave
2) The fish might actually learn something. i'm freely willing to give up a small amount of EV playing shitty hands in order to just be in the pot, make him feel like everyone plays like he does. I guarantee I'm losing less and winning more with any xx hand.
3) If you're willing to bet thinly for value against these ultra fish (and separate this from a fish who's an ULTRA aggro), then you can gain that EV back esp when the blinds are not aggro themselves.

[travz21]

I don't like folding this pf against someone who can go nuts. However, I don't like betting this flop against someone who can go nuts.

[FlipCoach]

And I want to apologize for the misleading poll b/c this is what happened on the turn:

Turn: 6 ($4, 2 players)
KAIK***2 bets $2

So then (knowing this guy is a somewhat, but not CRAZY betting donk), how would you guys proceed?

[travz21]

Shove. Shove it all.

[irishpkr]

First off, I honestly don't know what "bp" means... please explain. (I will never pretend to know everything, fyi)

Secondly - and this isn't directed at only you lilady, but I must emphasize again that I wanted to play tons of pots against this guy. IMO, of you aren't doing this against ultra fish and just waiting for them to pay you on big hands you're making the following mistakes:

1) The fish see there's no action at the table, and they might leave
2) The fish might actually learn something. i'm freely willing to give up a small amount of EV playing shitty hands in order to just be in the pot, make him feel like everyone plays like he does. I guarantee I'm losing less and winning more with any xx hand.
3) If you're willing to bet thinly for value against these ultra fish (and separate this from a fish who's an ULTRA aggro), then you can gain that EV back esp when the blinds are not aggro themselves.

BP = bottom pair, I'd assume

I really don't even know where to start with your 3 'points', but Ill give it a go
1. You think that folding this one hand will start the fish thinking you're a nit? You have to play 100% of hands or what?
2. You're giving up EV to make him feel 'at home'. If the guy is such a moron then I doubt he a) is paying much attention, b) cares. He doesnt need justification from you to play crap cards, he is clearly OK with it already.
3. I'm not sure a flop bet can even be considered thin btw Btw if the blinds arent aggro they are frequently checking better hands to you

Turn is obv fold as played

[FlipCoach]

Well of course, being the tard that I am.. I'm not gonna fold (cause, hey, I've got a redline to keep up here), so... this is what ensues...


Turn: 6 ($4, 2 players)
KAIK***2 bets $2, Hero raises to $5, KAIK***2 calls $3

River: 3 ($14, 2 players)

River play? value bet? check behind?

[irishpkr]

River feels close, but I definitely just side with a bet now, we have 2 pair, if he's as loose as you say he can still have 1 pair hands and call them. Ofcourse he'll have better 2 pair hands a fair amount of the time, some other better hands. I'm kinda dozing off so I can't quite work out if this guy is an aggro-fish or fish or passive-fish, you probably have a better idea, maybe you said already (lol). I think river is a $9 bet, but its fairly thin

[travz21]

Lol. This hand turned bad really quickly.

I'm never checking behind after I hit the nuts like that. Value bet something. And if he donks big I'm just folding.

[DannyG13]

My 2 cents:

I wouldn't have played this pre flop tbh, but can understand the reasoning behind it.

You have to bet this flop to a) isolate the fish, if the blinds play back at you it's an easy fold, and b) you may well have the best hand.

On the turn, once he leads out, call me a nit but im folding here. Once he's called the flop and bet the turn, even against this opponent it's hard to still think you have the best hand with bottom pair no kicker. Raising just seems very, spewy to me.

Very lucky river, you have to value bet it, something between $8-$10.

I understand what you were saying about wanting to play as many pots as possible against this opponent, but I have to disagree. I'd be playing cards with a bit more potential than the lowest of the low suited connectors. Higher suited connectors and gappers, and hands that are very top pair heavy so you can just value bet, value bet, value bet.

[liladypokerpro]

First off, I honestly don't know what "bp" means... please explain. (I will never pretend to know everything, fyi)

bp = bottom pair

BP = bottom pair, I'd assume

I really don't even know where to start with your 3 'points', but Ill give it a go
1. You think that folding this one hand will start the fish thinking you're a nit? You have to play 100% of hands or what?
2. You're giving up EV to make him feel 'at home'. If the guy is such a moron then I doubt he a) is paying much attention, b) cares. He doesnt need justification from you to play crap cards, he is clearly OK with it already.
3. I'm not sure a flop bet can even be considered thin btw Btw if the blinds arent aggro they are frequently checking better hands to you

Turn is obv fold as played

We think too much alike...

I just can't wrap my head around why I'd proceed pre, or even if I did, why I'd continue on as far as the river. I guess to each their own. *shrugs*

[grimReaper]

I don't like limping behind w/ 34s, the only flops you'll hit are flops w/ 2 or more hearts (even the straight draws you'll flop you won't be too excited about). I'd only play 67s+, but probably raise the limper and just cbet and take it down, *assuming* he's a limping station AND you don't have an aggressive image or haven't played many pots w/ him. Fish generally give much less credit to players w/ aggressive images than they deserve.

Once this hand does go to the flop, despite what everyone else says, I don't mind betting 2x, I figure UTG is betting a J or a 9 when it's checked to him, and you just have to get through the blinds. And once anyone calls, probably just check myself to showdown.

As for the turn play, I don't like it, way too much money is going in the middle w/ bottom pair here, unless your trying to bluff him off a 6. I just don't see what you beat besides a diamond draw, 78 and QT, but he probably would've bet QT on the flop.

[travz21]

Obv turn is a bluff. But I don't get why we're doing it. I thought the reason we limped pf was because he's loose and won't fold to our flop cbets even if we iso him. So we only want to iso with hands that have a lot of post flop value against these players. So why are we trying to bluff him?

[grimReaper]

I thought the reason we limped pf was because he's loose and won't fold to our flop cbets even if we iso him.

If we limp instead of raising b/c he's calling our cbets, then limping allows to blinds to come in, killing our hand and fold equity. If he's calling our cbets, then we can't make a pfr/cbet bluff and just have to wait for better hands as you said.

And yea, bluffing a character like this is not optimal. They're either way too suspicious or don't know how to play, or both.

[travz21]

We don't have fold equity anyways even if we iso. That's what I was saying. This guy calls everything. We aren't worried about the blinds. They probably suck, and having them in doesn't kill our hand by any means. So that's why limping is better than raising. We don't want to pump up a pot with a bad hand when we can't outplay our opponent post flop. We just want to be in the hand and let him call down/spaz when we actually hit hard.

[FlipCoach]

To whoever said I should raised pf, thats a valid point.

@ travz, true enough about turning to a bluff and we can't really bluff him. My actual thought was that I could be valuebetting against QT.

Anyway here's the river... I think you'll love the result.. lol.

Turn: 6 ($4, 2 players)
KAIK***2 bets $2, Hero raises to $5, KAIK***2 calls $3

River: 3 ($14, 2 players)
KAIK***2 checks, Hero bets $5, KAIK***2 calls $5

Final Pot: $24
KAIK***2 shows Pair
3 2
Hero shows Two Pairs, Fours and Threes
4 3

Hero wins $22.80 (net +$11.30)

So yeah...