Can you muck when all in?

[gamer4life27]

I asked this on yahoo answer's a while ago, but I want to see what you all think.

Now before anything, let me explain a few things. This tournament is exclusive, invite only. And you have to reserve you spot on the tournament. If your not within the top 20 reserved players, you can't play. This time, a few friends of friends came over. We looked them up, and the people who invited them said they were cool people.

I was playing a cash game with my buddies a while ago. It started with two tables, and I'm at the final table with a short stack (less than 5x BB if I remember). So I have some patience as I throw away rag cards for the first few hands. Then, I look down a QQ UTG + 2. Fold fold, and I take my minuscule stack and place it in the center and say: 'All-in' as the stack makes a loud thud noise.

It is folded around to the new guy two seats away from me who looks at me for a minute, then calls. It's folded all the way around and we flip them over. He shows AQ up against me QQ. I am just praying and hoping no Ace comes on the board as the chips are scooped into the center.

But the poker gods always have it in for me, as the flop comes out AA10, giving him trip Aces. I protest and say: 'Wow, what sucks!' and I throw my cards to the dealer in disgust, sitting on the other side of the table. While throwing them, they hit the muck and one card flips over, leaving one queen exposed and the other next to it in the muck.

I stand up, about to leave, when the person dealing deals the last two cards, J K for a split straight. I look back and think I have a glimmer of hope and try to split the pot, when the whole table protests. Half say that since my hand hit the muck, it was dead and the pot goes to the new guy. Of course, the new guy is also on this side of the argument. But the other half (including my friends and family and me) say that since I'm all in, and it's tournament, that I can't muck and the hand speaks for itself. And I add that the only card I need for the straight is exposed.

This is where they made the mistake, they call out another player who got knocked out earlier from the cash game into here. They decided that his decision would be treated like the tournament director's and what he says goes. They tell him the exact situation and before they can finish, he says: 'His hand is dead, theres nothing he could do about it. He mucked them.' I look at him in shock, as the new guy scoops the pot. I storm off in disgust complain that I should still be in, ect.

I want to know if what I thought was correct, or if the mostly cash game player is correct. I think his decision was based on cash game style, but I just want to make sure.

[gamer4life27]

I forgot to add that the new guy went on to win the whole tournament. Which pissed me off! But through my family, they gave me my money back. They did this because the person who won paid the host the buy-in and my relative just happened to be the host and they were on my side and felt bad for me. But thats not the point.

[frob23]

First, don't be such a hot-head and you wouldn't find yourself in this spot.

Second, get or appoint a real tournament director who is informed and has final say in all decisions not involving his own hand (have a 2nd player who can stand in this role if the hand does involve the primary tournament director).

Third, if you want the protection of tournament rules then abide by the common procedures in place which help enforce them. This involves both (or all players) properly tabling their hands after all possible action has occurred (meaning one or fewer people involved are not all-in). Basically, when you were all-in with one caller, you both should have turned the hands face up in front of you before another card was dealt. Insist on this method and the problem becomes impossible in the future because a hand, once properly tabled, can not be mucked. So even if you got all ticked off, your hand could not be mucked and would be live. Also, on one occasion during a real long run, I tabled an all-in hand that I misread on the final board and thought I lost. But because the cards were tabled and it was everyone's responsibility to let the cards speak, I won when someone pointed out that I had caught a four flush on the board. This is for your own protection.

Fourth, an all-in hand can't be mucked but there is some discretion about how to read an all-in hand that was never tabled and was thrown face down towards or into the muck. There is a lot of subjective area here and a tournament director is always called (the decision can't be made by a dealer regardless of how clear it may seem). If the player's cards can clearly be identified and removed from the muck and came to rest above all the other cards in the muck, they may be declared live. This usually requires them to miss the muck or just hit the muck and remain almost completely off of it. If they both flip over, they may be declared live. If one flips though... that is up to the tournament director. One card is not a hand and a player without a hand can't win a pot. In the best interests of the game, the tournament director may determine that it is clearly a winning hand (or tying hand in this case) and award the pot to the person who mucked. But the TD does not have to rule this way and may rule the other way if there is a history of the player making this mistake, some doubt as to the upturned card's origin, or some other reason.

Basically, the person was probably wrong. You could have been awarded half of the pot. But there was no rule in place requiring that you be awarded half the pot. Next time, play correctly and you won't have to rely on this sort of decision. I might have awarded the pot to you in this situation but I wouldn't have to.

Fifth, because all those involved agreed to abide by the decision of the player who was called on to act as the TD, that decision stands. You lost the pot.

[phosphorescence]

first things first, you were in a sit and go, not a cash game. people always call 'em that lol, just gets confusing.

your hand is definitely dead. once you've mucked it you can't claim any of the pot.

in a tournament at a showdown let's say this happens: one guy says 'straight' and the other guy mucks his 2 pair, then at the showdown it turns out the guy who said 'straight' was mistaken and he's got nothing but K high, he will still take the pot because the other hand has been mucked.

once you were both all in both hands should have been straight on their backs anyway, as this was a tournament and not a cash (ring) game. the only time you are allowed to muck in an all in situation in a tournament is when there are no more cards to come (after the river) [and i think that's only if you were the one who called the all-in or something]

do not underestimate the power of the muck!

[gamer4life27]

Ok, lets get one thing straight. I didn't muck, the hands were turned over as soon as we were all in pre flop. Everyone say I had pocket queens and that he has A Q. I threw (more like tossed in anger) and one turned over. It wasn't face down, and I threw them into the muck and one turned face up.

[frob23]

Originally Posted by gamer4life27 Ok, lets get one thing straight. I didn't muck, the hands were turned over as soon as we were all in pre flop. Everyone say I had pocket queens and that he has A Q. I threw (more like tossed in anger) and one turned over. It wasn't face down, and I threw them into the muck and one turned face up.

A properly tabled hand can't be mucked -- not in a tournament and not in a cash game. That would be the end of the discussion. Still, your own attitude led to your losing this pot. Just keep cool and throw away the cards at the end.

[phosphorescence]

Originally Posted by gamer4life27 Ok, lets get one thing straight. I didn't muck, the hands were turned over as soon as we were all in pre flop. Everyone say I had pocket queens and that he has A Q. I threw (more like tossed in anger) and one turned over. It wasn't face down, and I threw them into the muck and one turned face up.

oh, in that case you probably should have split, yeah.

[Vito_Nuccio]

First of all when both were all in and cards came up the dealer should have gathered the hands closer to the center of the table for showdown, even if TV cameras not present. Once both are all-in and cards exposed the dealer now controls your cards, your decision making is over.

This would fall under a house rule thing, I would think every home or cardroom has a different rule concerning something like this. A Tournament director is warranted or a vote from all players in the tourney. Not all circumstances can be foreseen. On the spot rules interpretation is needed more frequently then expected. When setting up any kind of competition, assure the rules are clear, and have a backup plan for when the unexpected rears it's ugly head.

Frob is correct, your steaming created the mess that could have been avoided. It happened and hopefully all can learn a lesson about fair play and tilt control.

Later,

[gamer4life27]

Lol, yeah, I already know my attitude got me into this trouble. Thats nothing new. I'm learning to cope with it, but it's difficult. I am almost there.

You see, one of the new guys (we knew this one personally) was barley learning to play, and he was the dealer. He didn't know to gather the cards, but everyone else always does. So that kinda contributed to it also, but I'm not going to blame the whole thing on him. This was just to ask if the ruling was correct.

[Vito_Nuccio]

This sounds like all the stars lined up for an end of time type of situation. A, B, C, D and E added up to disaster. You have a good attitude towards the situation. If there was not a written rule in your game previoiusly, I hope you guys added this.

Have a good one.

Bye,

[gamer4life27]

Yes, we have. We now have tournament directors who know all the tournament rules and not just cash game rules.

[frob23]

Originally Posted by gamer4life27 Yes, we have. We now have tournament directors who know all the tournament rules and not just cash game rules.

It should be noted that your "tournament director" in the first case wasn't even aware of cash game rules. Once a hand has been tabled, the cards speak. As was stated above, the dealer was the actual person in control of your hand at that point. It's not possible for the hand to be mucked as it has been shown-down. Granted, in a cash game you have a stronger imperative to protect your hand until the pot is pushed to you (as the tournament rules about not being able to fold an all-in hand don't always apply) since even a dealer can misread a hand from time to time.

Originally Posted by Robert's Rules of Poker Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management's discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of false information given to the player.

That's from the cash game rules. So even throwing your hand into the muck doesn't always demand that the hand be declared dead.

[gamer4life27]

Yes, this is what I was asking. I knew I was right when you coldn't muck or throw away a hand once your all in, but the whole situation created controversy and I was just making sure I knew the right rule and was not fed false information.

[bb poker 22]

no you cant

Originally Posted by gamer4life27 I asked this on yahoo answer's a while ago, but I want to see what you all think. Now before anything, let me explain a few things. This tournament is exclusive, invite only. And you have to reserve you spot on the tournament. If your not within the top 20 reserved players, you can't play. This time, a few friends of friends came over. We looked them up, and the people who invited them said they were cool people. I was playing a cash game with my buddies a while ago. It started with two tables, and I'm at the final table with a short stack (less than 5x BB if I remember). So I have some patience as I throw away rag cards for the first few hands. Then, I look down a QQ UTG + 2. Fold fold, and I take my minuscule stack and place it in the center and say: 'All-in' as the stack makes a loud thud noise. It is folded around to the new guy two seats away from me who looks at me for a minute, then calls. It's folded all the way around and we flip them over. He shows AQ up against me QQ. I am just praying and hoping no Ace comes on the board as the chips are scooped into the center. But the poker gods always have it in for me, as the flop comes out AA10, giving him trip Aces. I protest and say: 'Wow, what sucks!' and I throw my cards to the dealer in disgust, sitting on the other side of the table. While throwing them, they hit the muck and one card flips over, leaving one queen exposed and the other next to it in the muck. I stand up, about to leave, when the person dealing deals the last two cards, J K for a split straight. I look back and think I have a glimmer of hope and try to split the pot, when the whole table protests. Half say that since my hand hit the muck, it was dead and the pot goes to the new guy. Of course, the new guy is also on this side of the argument. But the other half (including my friends and family and me) say that since I'm all in, and it's tournament, that I can't muck and the hand speaks for itself. And I add that the only card I need for the straight is exposed. This is where they made the mistake, they call out another player who got knocked out earlier from the cash game into here. They decided that his decision would be treated like the tournament director's and what he says goes. They tell him the exact situation and before they can finish, he says: 'His hand is dead, theres nothing he could do about it. He mucked them.' I look at him in shock, as the new guy scoops the pot. I storm off in disgust complain that I should still be in, ect. I want to know if what I thought was correct, or if the mostly cash game player is correct. I think his decision was based on cash game style, but I just want to make sure.