Do you use it #1- The Standard Raise

[iceveins0901]

well i think technicnally the raise of 100 is 5xBB +20 per limper is a bit big, but then again 20 minutes later that size will be too small

In a cash game situation, I still love keeping preflop bets the same, standard, it allows the other players to still have no idea where you are.

The problem I have with betting is post flop, i like usually betting anywhere from 3/4 to Pot size, and if I raise, i raise to triple their bet. Is this ok?

Obviously if I have a monster I kinda will tone my bets down a bit if I want more folk involved

[ungarstu132]

Originally Posted by iceveins0901 well i think technicnally the raise of 100 is 5xBB +20 per limper is a bit big, but then again 20 minutes later that size will be too small In a cash game situation, I still love keeping preflop bets the same, standard, it allows the other players to still have no idea where you are. The problem I have with betting is post flop, i like usually betting anywhere from 3/4 to Pot size, and if I raise, i raise to triple their bet. Is this ok? Obviously if I have a monster I kinda will tone my bets down a bit if I want more folk involved

you raise TRIPLE their bet...hmm thats a bit large.......look at it this way,

if you want to RE RAISE post flop, you have a GOOD hand, not a decent hand...BUT a GOOD to GREAT hand.......

i would bet 2-2.5 times their raise depending on the pot, my position, and my hand, and every 2.5 times their raise might be a little big..

what do you think?

[frob23]

Personally, I never min-raise or min-bet. So if you're saying that if he bets 600, you might make it 1,200... then I would have to say I don't see the logic in that. By raising so little, you're ensuring they have the odds to call with any hand they would likely bet with in the first place.

If I am not willing to put a proper raise in then I have to doubt the quality of my hand in the first place. If I am not able to raise that much... perhaps I shouldn't be playing the hand at all to his bet.

[ungarstu132]

Originally Posted by frob23 Personally, I never min-raise or min-bet. So if you're saying that if he bets 600, you might make it 1,200... then I would have to say I don't see the logic in that. By raising so little, you're ensuring they have the odds to call with any hand they would likely bet with in the first place. If I am not willing to put a proper raise in then I have to doubt the quality of my hand in the first place. If I am not able to raise that much... perhaps I shouldn't be playing the hand at all to his bet.

you obviously must calculate posibilities for opponenets hand and calculate the correct raise, but if im re raising, its a hand good enough that he wont have good odds to call if he knew my hand

what do you think?

[iceveins0901]

i would normally raise TO triple, so from 20 to 60, from 5 to 15, sorry for not clarifying, it is hopefully right around a pot sized raise.

[ungarstu132]

Originally Posted by iceveins0901 i would normally raise TO triple, so from 20 to 60, from 5 to 15, sorry for not clarifying, it is hopefully right around a pot sized raise.

ah ok, thats more reasonable, im not a huge fan of the pot size raise, but i use it every once in a while...the reason im not a fan, is because it doesnt stick to the continuation bet

STAY TUNED for Do you use it #3-The continuation bet

ill explain everything you need to know about the continuation bet, one of the most important bets post flop in poker !!

[ungarstu132]

can i have some other peoples thoughts?

[frob23]

A raise has no relation to a continuation bet. The continuation bet is a bet of roughly 50% of the pot, on the flop when you miss, after you were the pre-flop aggressor and it has been checked to you or you were first to act. If you are raising then it can't be a continuation bet because you are no longer continuing your action from the previous street -- you're responding to the action in front of you. The larger bet pre-flop doesn't rule out a continuation bet.

I make a strong pot sized raise pre-flop and then a continuation bet on the flop fairly often and find it's very effective in taking down the pot often enough to show a profit.

you obviously must calculate posibilities for opponenets hand and calculate the correct raise, but if im re raising, its a hand good enough that he wont have good odds to call if he knew my hand what do you think?

I do not think this is the case much of the time, especially if your opponent is making a semi-bluff. If he bets 2/3rds of the pot, on the flop, with a flush draw... and you min-raise... he has the odds to call.

Example. Pot is 90, he bets 60 and you raise to 120. The pot is now 270 and he has to call 60. He is getting 4.5-1 to make his flush. Those odds make it correct to call even if he knows you won't put another chip in if he hits. And if he has a bigger draw than that, he's getting even better odds. Plus, he can accept those odds with a worse draw -- at times -- if he thinks the implied odds are high enough.

Think of it as if you had two red Qs on a 9-6-2 flop with 2 clubs. If he is sitting there with A-K of clubs... he has 15 outs to beat you. And even if he's not... there are those 15 cards which especially scare you (as well as some others like 10, 7, and 8 which might be scare cards if your opponent is loose enough). Your hand is very vulnerable. A minraise doesn't offer any information and gives him compelling pot odds to try and out-draw you. A big raise of about the size of the pot or whatever will make it hard for him to afford drawing out. Also, a larger raise will let you know if you're facing a set or two pair right there... as a reraise of your larger raise almost certainly means your over-pair is useless.

[ungarstu132]

Originally Posted by frob23 A raise has no relation to a continuation bet. The continuation bet is a bet of roughly 50% of the pot, on the flop when you miss, after you were the pre-flop aggressor and it has been checked to you or you were first to act. If you are raising then it can't be a continuation bet because you are no longer continuing your action from the previous street -- you're responding to the action in front of you. The larger bet pre-flop doesn't rule out a continuation bet. I make a strong pot sized raise pre-flop and then a continuation bet on the flop fairly often and find it's very effective in taking down the pot often enough to show a profit. I do not think this is the case much of the time, especially if your opponent is making a semi-bluff. If he bets 2/3rds of the pot, on the flop, with a flush draw... and you min-raise... he has the odds to call. Example. Pot is 90, he bets 60 and you raise to 120. The pot is now 270 and he has to call 60. He is getting 4.5-1 to make his flush. Those odds make it correct to call even if he knows you won't put another chip in if he hits. And if he has a bigger draw than that, he's getting even better odds. Plus, he can accept those odds with a worse draw -- at times -- if he thinks the implied odds are high enough. Think of it as if you had two red Qs on a 9-6-2 flop with 2 clubs. If he is sitting there with A-K of clubs... he has 15 outs to beat you. And even if he's not... there are those 15 cards which especially scare you (as well as some others like 10, 7, and 8 which might be scare cards if your opponent is loose enough). Your hand is very vulnerable. A minraise doesn't offer any information and gives him compelling pot odds to try and out-draw you. A big raise of about the size of the pot or whatever will make it hard for him to afford drawing out. Also, a larger raise will let you know if you're facing a set or two pair right there... as a reraise of your larger raise almost certainly means your over-pair is useless.

i wouldnt exactly min raise, but you must know your opponents, we are assuming many things, that are variables, they change all the time, if i believe my opponent is on a semi bluff, by how he plays, i will make a different raise, than if i think he has hit bottom 2 pair, or somthing similar....

correct?

[frob23]

Originally Posted by ungarstu132 i wouldnt exactly min raise, but you must know your opponents, we are assuming many things, that are variables, they change all the time, if i believe my opponent is on a semi bluff, by how he plays, i will make a different raise, than if i think he has hit bottom 2 pair, or somthing similar.... correct?

Are your flop hand ranges, for your opponents, narrow enough to put them on ranges that narrow? Often, I find that it's not till the turn when I can be sure if my opponent is/was on a semi-bluff with a draw. Often I am trying to decide if his bet might mean a pair or a draw... the texture of the board can help... but I am often not sure. Against some players that I might have hundreds of hours at the table with, I can get pretty specific based on what they're doing... but I still don't want to put him on on specific type of hand and then proceed as if that is exactly what he has. When I am as good at reading people as Daniel Negreanu (spelling is wrong I am sure), then I might be able to vary my bet sizes a little more to the low side.

If the flop is Q-J-7 with 2 hearts... and he leads at it with a bet of around half the pot... it could mean a lot of things. He could be throwing out a probe bet (or a continuation bet if he was the bettor pre-flop), betting top pair, betting two pair, or making a semi bluff play at the pot. If I am sitting there with J-J, I do NOT want him there with 9-10 of hearts. I know I have the best hand right now and I don't know if he's semi-bluffing with that 9-10h hand or betting A-Q. I don't see how I could know if the player is normally a passive player pre-flop and would limp/call with A-Q -- and a lot of players do. They certainly could just have easily played 9-10h like that.

If the player has A-Q, he's almost dead and I want to keep him in if possible. If the player has 9-10h... I need to make it expensive for him to stay in. To try and put him on a specific hand on the flop could cause me to bet in a manner which makes his call correct. It's a hard balance to strike but normally, I am happy to keep some pressure on them. I might not be raising the size of the pot (depending on the board) but I am keeping pressure on them. I want them to feel the pressure. I want that even with a real hand because I want them to feel that when I have nothing and make a move. I want them to know that I would very likely be playing the exact same way with the goods.

[ungarstu132]

Originally Posted by frob23 Are your flop hand ranges, for your opponents, narrow enough to put them on ranges that narrow? Often, I find that it's not till the turn when I can be sure if my opponent is/was on a semi-bluff with a draw. Often I am trying to decide if his bet might mean a pair or a draw... the texture of the board can help... but I am often not sure. Against some players that I might have hundreds of hours at the table with, I can get pretty specific based on what they're doing... but I still don't want to put him on on specific type of hand and then proceed as if that is exactly what he has. When I am as good at reading people as Daniel Negreanu (spelling is wrong I am sure), then I might be able to vary my bet sizes a little more to the low side. If the flop is Q-J-7 with 2 hearts... and he leads at it with a bet of around half the pot... it could mean a lot of things. He could be throwing out a probe bet (or a continuation bet if he was the bettor pre-flop), betting top pair, betting two pair, or making a semi bluff play at the pot. If I am sitting there with J-J, I do NOT want him there with 9-10 of hearts. I know I have the best hand right now and I don't know if he's semi-bluffing with that 9-10h hand or betting A-Q. I don't see how I could know if the player is normally a passive player pre-flop and would limp/call with A-Q -- and a lot of players do. They certainly could just have easily played 9-10h like that. If the player has A-Q, he's almost dead and I want to keep him in if possible. If the player has 9-10h... I need to make it expensive for him to stay in. To try and put him on a specific hand on the flop could cause me to bet in a manner which makes his call correct. It's a hard balance to strike but normally, I am happy to keep some pressure on them. I might not be raising the size of the pot (depending on the board) but I am keeping pressure on them. I want them to feel the pressure. I want that even with a real hand because I want them to feel that when I have nothing and make a move. I want them to know that I would very likely be playing the exact same way with the goods.

very good thought.....and other opinions?

[tripps747]

yeah if people limp ahead of me ill try a pot raise or maybe 3x's but with k a probably just call the blinds just cause i have bad luck with them 2 cards and sorry its not that strong of a hand unless u pair or catch ur draw but preflop it just isnt that strong

[ungarstu132]

Originally Posted by tripps747 yeah if people limp ahead of me ill try a pot raise or maybe 3x's but with k a probably just call the blinds just cause i have bad luck with them 2 cards and sorry its not that strong of a hand unless u pair or catch ur draw but preflop it just isnt that strong

i agree, but i would raise with AK if there have been no prior raises, you MUST get out the weak hands....

do you agree?

[MikeyInc]

Same Here the flow is the way to go. hopefully you have a rookie with a large stack to the right of you! hahahaha

[frob23]

Originally Posted by ungarstu132 thanx for your response. I agree when you bet a little more with 3 limpers, but i find that sticking to the standard raise works perfectly for me.... if possible, for learning purposes can you post a hand history, where you used the exact standard raise and somthing went wrong? i think it would be very beneficiary to examine it..... thanx

Here, I did one. This is a $5.50 sit and go on Stars. This isn't exactly what you're looking for, I know, but this is one reason I don't use the standard raise a lot in these low buy-in sit and gos in the early levels.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB (t1085)
UTG (t1445)
UTG+1 (t1385)
MP1 (t1300)
MP2 (t1555)
MP3 (t1985)
Hero (t1440)
Button (t1705)
SB (t1600)

Preflop: Hero is CO with , .
2 folds, MP1 calls t50, MP2 calls t50, 1 fold, Hero raises to t250, 3 folds, MP1 calls t200, MP2 calls t200.

I have played 1 hand before this in the entire tournament. I should have had a very tight image. And the table was fairly tight as well. So I went towards the low end of my raising range after limpers and actually went with the standard raise. I had both limpers come along... this is exactly what I don't want to happen when I raise with A-K. I want one player at most. The standard raise failed to do what I wanted it to do.

Flop: (t825) , , (3 players)
MP1 bets t1050 and is all-in.3 folds

Oh yeah, donk bet all-in. No way I am calling this. Thankfully, this player had left his brain in his other pants because I would have surely fired a continuation bet into that dry board and he would have gotten even more from me.

Final Pot: t825

Results below:
MP1 shows
Outcome: MP1 wins t875.

[JonaBullets]

I keep hearing the saying better to be raising with AK then to call with it. Thoughts?

What are your toughts on re-raising with an AK suited? I was playing .25/.50 and had AK suited in the cut off (9 players). UGT+1 went to 1.50, and UGT+2 called. Rest folded. I re-raised to $5.00. and they all folded.

Also a simular thing happend like this, where I was on the button. and re-raised to $5. and the raiser called. Flop was K high, and he checked, and I made a 3/4 pot bet, and he folded. Was thinking he had mid to low pockets. And didnt hit a set. I was thinking should he of coming over the top or just called. I might have been in trouble.

Do you think its better to call the raise, or re-raise in such a position/hand?

[JonaBullets]

Originally Posted by frob23 Oh yeah, donk bet all-in. No way I am calling this. Thankfully, this player had left his brain in his other pants because I would have surely fired a continuation bet into that dry board and he would have gotten even more from me.

Personally, and it could possible be the wrong play, but on that board. I would bet it too. with flush and straight draws and 3 others in the pot, a set of eights might look good. but its common for some one to raise with suited connectors, or AK suited. I wouldn't want some one drawing out on me with a set. Not on that board.
Maybe if the flop was K83 rainbow, id check the trips. I like to bet when i know im ahead. Better to win a small pot then to lose a big one. That's just me though.
And again. this could be wrong play.

[ungarstu132]

any other thoughts?

[iceveins0901]

With top set in that hand and MP1's stack size, I would rather check raise all in, there is a very good chance that you will be called by any flush draw anyways, not to mention if someone would just C-bet with their preflop raise, added money there should everyone fold or one person calls your check raise

[edit] i just read the rest of the sentence where Frob says he would have c-bet too, same deal as what I thought against 2 others.

[iceveins0901]

Originally Posted by JonaBullets I keep hearing the saying better to be raising with AK then to call with it. Thoughts? What are your toughts on re-raising with an AK suited? I was playing .25/.50 and had AK suited in the cut off (9 players). UGT+1 went to 1.50, and UGT+2 called. Rest folded. I re-raised to $5.00. and they all folded. Also a simular thing happend like this, where I was on the button. and re-raised to $5. and the raiser called. Flop was K high, and he checked, and I made a 3/4 pot bet, and he folded. Was thinking he had mid to low pockets. And didnt hit a set. I was thinking should he of coming over the top or just called. I might have been in trouble. Do you think its better to call the raise, or re-raise in such a position/hand?

In late position, as long as you dont get caught up in bluffing with your AKs when you whiff the flop a reraise is good pre. A reraise is much stronger move preflop, something rarely done with 22-JJ, so you will get a lot more respect from it. Also if you do flop your top pair or top two you have to be wary of your opponent if they stay in the pot with you post flop, as they could have flopped that set and you could be very far behind.