Do you use it #1- The Standard Raise

[ungarstu132]

How many people use the standard raise when playing sngs and mtts. If you dont know what the standard raise is, ill explain it to you.

As depicted by David Sklansky, The Standard Raise is classified as 3xBB + 1BB for every limper.

Example one

Blinds 50/100

seat 1-SB 50
seat 2-BB 100
seat 3-folds
seat 4-limps
seat 5-limps
seat 6 folds
seat 7 is me and i have AK

I want to make the standard raise here, as i have a decent hand and nobody has shown they have a strong hand.

The BB is 100, so theres 300 (3xBB) and 2 limpers theres another 200 (2xBB for every limper) for a total raise of 500.



Example 2

Blinds 100/200

seat 1- SB for 100
seat 2-BB for 200
seat 3-folds
seat 4 is me, i have 99 in early position, so i want to make the standard raise

the BB is 200 so thats 600 (3xBB of 200) and theres no limpers, so thats 0, so the standard raise here would be 600

The standard raise is known by pros to be the "correct raise, but is usually altered. You obviously cant make the same raise every hand in a tournament, so most pros play it like this.

60% of the time you make a raise- you make the standard raise
20% of the time you add about 1 BB to the raise (in this case you would bet 600 instead of 500
and 20% of the time you make a raise- and subtract 1 BB from the raise (in this case you would have bet 400 instead of 500)

I use the standard raise when:
-there are no raises
-i have a decent to premium hand
-OR i have two high cards, or a low pocket pair in late position with no more than 3 limpers

Please let me know what you think about this, if you agree or disagree, and if you use it in SNGs and MTTs.

I hope you all can learn a little from my posts....after all thats the goal !!

Stay tuned for nexts weeks- Do you use it #3-The Continuation Bet and Do you use it #4-The Gap Concept

[Latrocinium]

I think it's a good post.

I tend to go with table flow. Standard raises is what people usually wind up using or something close to. I change it up in accordance with where the chipstacks are, if I'm a chipstack, etc, etc, etc..

I will try to make sure it is standard raises in the next game, and see how it plays.

[ungarstu132]

Originally Posted by Latrocinium I think it's a good post. I tend to go with table flow. Standard raises is what people usually wind up using or something close to. I change it up in accordance with where the chipstacks are, if I'm a chipstack, etc, etc, etc.. I will try to make sure it is standard raises in the next game, and see how it plays.

the key is not to get predictable....if its a long tourney and you have been at the same table for a while, mix in a bluff every 30-45 mintues or so......ASWELL vary the sizes of your raises....it will work great !!

good luck and im glad i could help you out

[irishpkr]

As much as I agree with the 3xBB +1 per limper for tourneys (and 4x +1 for cash), I can't really see any reason to vary my raise size 'randomly' ie the +1/-1 BB thing. I'd be tempted to alter my raise on POSITION if anything, I just don't see where the gain comes from, if you raise the same with any raising hand you disguise your holding well enough as it is imo :/

[ungarstu132]

Originally Posted by irishpkr As much as I agree with the 3xBB +1 per limper for tourneys (and 4x +1 for cash), I can't really see any reason to vary my raise size 'randomly' ie the +1/-1 BB thing. I'd be tempted to alter my raise on POSITION if anything, I just don't see where the gain comes from, if you raise the same with any raising hand you disguise your holding well enough as it is imo :/

its a valid opinion, and many people feel the same way, but this applies to ONLINE mtts and sngs ASWELL as LIVE mtts and sngs....

With both you are playing the same people for hours at a time, and ALL good players observe their opponents. As much as you might not want to believe it, people will cantch onto yoour single "standard raise" and it wont work as good. If you change it up and raise different sizes with different hands, and flip it around occasionally, it works much better in my point of view. And not many people say it hurts their game.

Do you agree with that? Id just like to know your opinion on it. Im here to help people, but i can also learn.

[ungarstu132]

anybody else have any opinions?

id love to help other people, and possibly learn a thng or two myself.

[iceveins0901]

Online I really only play cash, in cash games, I always keep my preflop raises the same, standard 3bb +1, even on my bluffs, which in themselves are rare, so mainly i could have anything from AA to 78 suited any time I raise, then its up to you to decide how good you think your hand is against that range.

Next, Live... oh live... Where do I begin, 1/2 NLHE, if i have one of my raising hands, 16 is usually the bet that gets from 10 to 3, anything typical like the standard is just raising to get more people in the pot. Then when 3 people call the 16, give or take the blinds, you are playing for a pretty good pot, a nice 30 bet on the flop scares away action cause your bet was so "big".

I know, I play against absolutely horrid players live, but I think that is why I love it so much!

[ungarstu132]

yeah, thats true, im not sure about your 8xBB bet, but it just depends on your oppenents, im sure you would have stopped doing that if it didnt work VERY fast, so it must work.....

thats quite a wide range of hands AA to 78s, but im assuming you mean a few bluffs, when you get down to hands like 78s....

im not sure i agree with the sae raise everytime, i understand your thinking when you say, "well, they have to guess if i have AA to 78s" which i agree with, BUT if you vary the size of your raise, it causes A LOT MORE confusion, and if your oppenents are confused, you will net a much higher profit...

please let me know what you think, and thanx for your reply !!

[frob23]

In live cash games at low limits (like the $1/$2 NL mentioned above)... the standard raise is insanely small if you expect any fold equity. It's not uncommon to see someone raise 10xBB UTG and get 3-4 callers anyway. Less than that, and you're begging for a flop with 5+ people.


I do not use the standard raise... although I am aware of it. I raise 2.5-5 times the big blind if I am first to enter. And I typically follow the standard raise (although a bit on the larger side) if there is only one limper I might be doing 5-6xBB. When there are 2 or more limpers, I am raising much stronger. In the range of 150%-175% of the pot... on top of what I am already calling.

For 50/100 with 3 limpers when it got to me... pot of 450, 100 for my call... I am raising 850 more than my call... so I'm betting 950 there (9.5xBB). As it is... 6xBB (the standard raise) is just not enough to move people off the hand. When it comes back to the first limper, assuming everyone else folds, it will be 500 more but the pot would be 1,050... a little better than 2-1. Those aren't great odds but one of those 3 limpers might be willing to take them -- and if one does the next has even more reason to.

With my raise, it's 850 more... for 1,400 or about 1.6-1 pot odds... a bit less inviting. They're going to have to want to play their hand. Of course, in tournaments where the stacks aren't deep enough... the standard raise or even less might be all you can make before someone involved is pot-committed. But if you're playing 200xBB or deeper, the big raise is important to both clear people out and to reduce the implied odds as well. It can be more important to raise larger if you're playing very small limits. If I am playing 20/50cNL live (yes we do play this with a $100 min-buy in at times)... I am going to need to raise more just because people respect the money less. A larger bet lets them know I am serious about this hand.

Edit: position also matters. If I am 4th to act after 3 limpers... that is different from being on the button. In the first case, I also have to worry about the players who haven't acted yet... so I want to raise more to discourage them. They might call a standard raise expecting at least 1-2 callers from the blinds and early limpers (yeah, low-limit online people play like this... it's bad but they do). On the button, a raise closer to the standard raise makes more sense because I have fewer people to go through. Still, I prefer larger raises.

[ungarstu132]

thanx for your response. I agree when you bet a little more with 3 limpers, but i find that sticking to the standard raise works perfectly for me....

if possible, for learning purposes can you post a hand history, where you used the exact standard raise and somthing went wrong?

i think it would be very beneficiary to examine it.....

thanx

[227]

this is new news to me, i have never heard of the standard raise until now, im sure in these books i just bought i will learn a lot about it, and probably start using it. as you wrote you think it is a good way to play, so ill try it out, maybe it will work great for me.

im here to learn, and so far from your two posts, do you use it #1, and do you use it #2, i have learned some new topics, that i had no prior knowledge of.

thank you

[ungarstu132]

i use the standard raise every time i sit at a table, wether it be a cash table, a sng, or a mtt. I saw how good it worked for me the first time i tried it, and i havent changed my ways since...

give it a try and let me know what you think

good luck

[frob23]

Originally Posted by ungarstu132 thanx for your response. I agree when you bet a little more with 3 limpers, but i find that sticking to the standard raise works perfectly for me.... if possible, for learning purposes can you post a hand history, where you used the exact standard raise and somthing went wrong? i think it would be very beneficiary to examine it..... thanx

This is going to be a very hard because, like I said, I don't use the standard raise. And I haven't used it for a very long time. If anything, it would be a coincidence where I happened to bet 3xBB as the first in the pot -- which is within my range but not what I am talking about -- so it doesn't really apply. I'm almost never using the standard raise if other people are in the pot unless I am looking to build a large pot. And building a large pot is exactly what goes wrong with it.

Naturally, I play very bad players online. This is because I stick to the micro limits online... so a larger raise is needed to get attention. And when I play live, $2/$4, $1/$2, or smaller... it's similar to what I said above... a standard raise is just not going to get anyone out. I've seen someone raise $20 in a $1/$2 game (as the 2nd person in the pot) and still get 3 callers. I wouldn't have a hand history for those hands, of course.

The lowest limits warp your good play in a lot of respects. I do things in these games that would not be profitable in bigger games. Over-betting is one of those things... because they call too much and abusing that is fine. If I have AA and know the other guy will call 20xBB from his 60xBB stack, pre-flop... then I would be insane to bet 3xBB. I am looking to bet as much as I can expect to get a call for. Live, I have had a person call a $78 raise (in $1/$2NL) with 10-7 offsuit. He had raised to $20, and I made it $98 to go. And he went ahead and called anyway. Against those players... the standard raise is just too small.

Anyway... if I happen to play a hand and use the standard raise, I'll post the hand history. But with the people I typically sit with... I don't mind confessing to huge variance in my pre-flop betting and often over-betting the value of a hand when I expect a call.

[ungarstu132]

thanx, also this pertains A LOT to tournament (mtt and sng) play...

i play a lot of tournaments, more so than i play cash games, and the standard raise seems to be a hell of a lot more effective there. I guess its like that for two reasons, ONE, you have a set amount of chips that are equal to all others at the beggining, and if you bust it you are out, and TWO, players in mtts and sngs, are most likely there to make the money, not to try to get a few lucky hands playing like a donk as is what happens at cash tables....

do you use the standard raise in mtts and sngs?

[frob23]

I am a lot closer to the standard raise in tournament play than in cash games. At some points, spot on. I don't stick to it strictly though. It really depends on the table and the size of bets people are respecting there. If people are limp/folding to raises of 3xBB... I am only going to raise 3xBB against those people if they've limped. I tend to observe the habits of the players and size my bets towards who is facing it. A player who calls too often is going to face a larger raise and one that folds easily is going to face a smaller one.

When I am uncertain, I am almost always going to be near the default range... 3-5xBB.

Also, it's a position thing. If I will have position in the hand, I will raise less because I don't mind a call as much. If I am almost certainly not going to have position (like I am in the blinds), I am going to raise more and try to end the hand before the flop.

Another mitigating factor in a tournament is that I like to be the first into a hand unless I have a real strong hand. So I am not often entering a pot, in a tournament, after 2-3 limpers. And if I am playing a hand where I want to play it multi-way, I am not raising after the limpers... I will limp behind and encourage more people to come in. So all of that plays a role in giving me less opportunity to put in a raise after several limpers.

So, yeah, my raises can be close... when they happen. But it depends on a lot of things. I find it as a good guideline for where my bet size should be and then I try and adjust a little for the conditions at the table.

[ungarstu132]

i agree very much when you said you stick to the standard raise when you are first to enter the pot.....a lot of players also agree with you when you said you like to bet a little more than the standard raise when you are NOT the first to enter the pot...

myself i like to roughly stick to the standard raise, and then vary my bet sizes....not determined by the players already in the pot, just average...

what does everybody else think?

[227]

i uderstand the standard raise is 3 times th big blind plus 1 for every limper....but what do you mean by varying th size...does that mean to change the exact amount of the standard raise every time i bet?

[ungarstu132]

varying the size means:

when you want to make a standard raise bet

3xBB+ 1 60% of the time
4xBB+ 1 20% of the time
and 5xBB+ 1 20% of the time....

this is so your raises dont become predictable, and to give a little EXTRA confusion to your opponenets which is always a good thing.

anybody else have opinions or questions?

[Vito_Nuccio]

Tourney / Sit and Go:

I use the standard system with personal ammendments, chip / table position and player reads to determine raise size. It may not be a 60-20-20 split, but it is in the ballpark and is being adjusted up and down regularly. With poker one must be aware of the current situation and play accordingly. I think the 3-4-5 times BB starts to better come into play when you get deeper into a tourney when the blinds are higher opposed to the first few levels where even a 5 times BB bet is a small percentage of ones stack.

Thanks

[ungarstu132]

Originally Posted by Vito_Nuccio Tourney / Sit and Go: I use the standard system with personal ammendments, chip / table position and player reads to determine raise size. It may not be a 60-20-20 split, but it is in the ballpark and is being adjusted up and down regularly. With poker one must be aware of the current situation and play accordingly. I think the 3-4-5 times BB starts to better come into play when you get deeper into a tourney when the blinds are higher opposed to the first few levels where even a 5 times BB bet is a small percentage of ones stack. Thanks

thank you very much for your response, and you are correct !!

I do however disagree with one comment, at the start of a tournament you usually have 1500chips, and blinds 10/20 a raise of 100, plus 20 for every limper is a sufficient bet according to chip stacks....

what does everybody else think?