I hate high hand jackpots.

[frob23]

The weekly tournaments I play (the private live ones) have a $2 per player high hand jackpot. The player who gets the highest poker hand during the tournament wins this. The jackpot is not really an optional thing. But it's maddening to me to know I have to make this negative EV bet. I have a consistent ROI (return on investment) for the tournament as a whole (including all fees and the high hand) but when you take the high hand jackpot alone, I have a -65% return... basically, I am throwing $1.30 out the window with each tournament.

I know the sample I have isn't hundreds of games and maybe this is just a down area since mathematically I should break even over time as every one should have the same chance of having the best hand -- but I don't believe that. I do not think I have as good a chance as anyone else that plays to get the high hand.

I play very few hands compared to some of the other people. I even had a new player to the game comment that I fold faster than everyone else at the table. I almost never limp and I try and raise and steal the blinds. So I rarely play in a manner that will see a flop. When I do happen to see a flop I am betting enough so that it is unlikely there will be a turn. Because I have a reputation for being tight and playing strong hands, I have a lot of respect from most players when I make a raise or bet and they usually just get out of my way. This increases the chance that I won't see all 7 cards in any given hand. So I am playing fewer hands and seeing fewer cards than other people. The players who call almost every hand... and play passively... they have much more of a chance to run into a strong hand.

I don't know... it just ticks me off. I can't change my style of play because it has a strong profitable return for the game. But as long as I keep playing well, I am just almost never going to win this.

Does anyone else feel this way about high hand jackpots? Or am I a weirdo?

Or am I just bitter because I have been unlucky with them so far?

[liladypokerpro]

I have never played in one of these, but it sounds like it would be more profitable for the loose players vs the tight ones, so I don't think you are being a "weirdo" - you're probably right.

[frob23]

Originally Posted by liladypokerpro I have never played in one of these, but it sounds like it would be more profitable for the loose players vs the tight ones, so I don't think you are being a "weirdo" - you're probably right.

Well, on the positive side, the jackpots bring players to the game and let them win something once in a while when they stand no practical chance to win the tournament. And they do encourage loose play since the jackpot is often larger than the entry fee to the game... so when someone hits a big, big hand (aces full at the minimum, quads, or something) they suddenly find themselves to be very likely on a freeroll. No matter what happens, they will make money on the game. So they tend to be more involved and make more action and some very loose calls at times.

I do think it drives action and it brings people to the game who wouldn't be there... because it provides a little more motivation. There are more ways to win than lasting until the end.

If you've never played with a high hand jackpot... you might want to try it. Next time you have a home tournament (if you do that... I sometimes do a $5 one or a $10 one with 6-7 people)... take a dollar from the entry and designate it for the person who gets the highest hand during the game. The first thing you'll notice is that the 'gamblers' in the group will be excited about that idea... the conservative players won't be. The gamblers like it for two reasons... 1) it's another way to gamble... and 2) because they think they'll win it (and they're probably right).

For a 6 person $5 game... it would be something like...

$6 - high hand
$8 - 2nd place
$16 - 1st place

which is very different from paying top 3... since you can be 1st or 2nd and have high hand too. This structure can dramatically change the way the game plays... you'll be shocked at times. It might even benefit a solid player because the action will loosen up and be there when you find a hand.

Some people like it... and, I confess, in some of my home tournaments we do this if I know the prospect will bring a couple extra players who have no chance of getting 1st... so it makes the net profit a little bigger by increasing the people. When you experience them, you might enjoy them. My step-brother pleads for them all the time when we play a tournament because he enjoys the chance.

Still, I hate high hand jackpots. I never win them in the small home tournaments either. But sometimes I bend to the will of the people who want to play. That is why I don't really fight about the $2 high hand in the private tournament. I know that if I made a stink, I could probably get out of it and just not be eligible for winning. They have done it for players who were short money in the past... who didn't have the $2 to contribute. But it would be bad for my image to not participate... right now, I look like just one of the guys... there to have fun... they don't realize that my goal is to have fun AND drag money from that game. So I am stuck paying for something I know is a bad investment...

I try to keep my off-table image fun and loose. I am there to cut-loose and gamble. It keeps them from noticing that I don't drink and that I tend to win a little too often. I've even been known to cut for high card for $1 or $5 before... which is something I don't normally do as there's no real edge to it... just to "have fun." It's a break even activity... but it makes me look like a gambler. And, oddly, doesn't change my poker image of being tight and only playing high cards. But it makes them believe I am willing to come and "donate" money to the prize pool.

[Vito_Nuccio]

I have played high hand games, but not like yours, ours are much smaller, just a side bonus.

In my no-limit, pot-limit winter league we pay $25 buy-in, $5 for end of season payoffs, and $1 per night for high hand. The buck keeps it in perspecitve, if you get it, you get a few dollars. It is small enough not to bust too much into ROI numbers.

My other group, (more friendly kitchen table type) with friends (limit dealers choice, no wild games) we again keep high hand small, if the buy-in is $40, then the high hand will be $1-2.

With the small high hand buy-in it keeps it fun without infringing upon the purse amount. Sometimes you can have a semi-uninteresting evening and have that one hand make up for a portion of your losses.

But to pay high hand almost as much as 2nd place, wow, that is a lottery factor. The good players who play selective hands will be at a disadvantage with the high hand pay proportion.

Later,

[frob23]

Originally Posted by Vito_Nuccio But to pay high hand almost as much as 2nd place, wow, that is a lottery factor. The good players who play selective hands will be at a disadvantage with the high hand pay proportion.

Oh, that's not our typical thing although we have done it in my own private games if it will be the deciding factor for getting 2-3 extra people to play. And the lottery factor is one reason a couple people push for it. The high hand I am complaining about is from the big game.

High hand has been more than making it ITM before. That starts happening right about 15 people. With 15 people the payout should, if I have my numbers right, be:

High hand -- $30
4th -- $30
3rd -- $50
2nd -- $90
1st -- $130

The money is mainly concentrated in 1st/2nd places so it's possible, if we get over 21 people (the cut-off for paying 5 people) that the person who makes 5th will get $30 and the high hand will be $42+. But when we get that high, it's not even remotely close to 2nd place.

Also, it might be noted that in the entire history of this game I have seen it played down to 1 person exactly once, and heard of it happening two other times. When it gets to two people, there is almost always a 50/50 chop. So the real payout for 15 people is normally:

High hand -- $30
4th -- $30
3rd -- $50
2nd -- $110
1st -- $110

This happens regardless of chip stacks and I have seen it when someone has 20-1 or larger in chips. It's pretty much an unwritten rule of the group. I've been on both sides of it and don't mind it. I just play with that understanding. Since we do that, the real value of 2nd place is often much greater than it would appear from the typical payout scale on the computer.