Why's my sit n go game better than cash

[C4R15]

Can anyone explain why i can win in sit n go tournaments, but my cash game is terrible. I think i'll just have to stick to the tourneys. If i call or raise in cash games i always get caught by someones rags catching two pair or trips, where as in tourneys my hand holds up.

[frob23]

I am sure your hands don't always hold up in tournament play. They get beaten once in a while by worse hands.

But there is a world of difference between tournament and ring game play. People tend to play a little tighter in tournaments because they can't rebuy. The stacks are almost always much shorter in tournaments so there's less value in calling without a big hand. In a ring game, the stacks are often deep enough to justify a call with a marginal hand and position. That is especially true if you think the other player might lose a lot of money when they're beat.

If tournaments games are better for you then there's nothing wrong with sticking to them.

[dew12109]

Where do you play? I wonder because on some sites, they rig the cash games to create more action so the pots get bigger for higher rake $'s. There is no reason for them to rig tournaments because once the fee is paid, the action of the game no longer matters to the poker room. This is really prevelant on all the big sites, like PokerStars, Full Tilt Poker, Absolute, and Ultimate Bet.

[JustTheTipPlz]

please just stop with the rigged nonsense. go read Sklansky and learn to accept variance, or just quit playing.

[travz21]

I think Dew was joking, hopefully. Because, obv, rigging tournaments would make them go faster, creating people to play more often and spending more rake.

None of the big sites are rigged.

[pokerbucket]

Some people always say that they play tighter in tournaments than cash games because when you are out of chips you can't rebuy...but I really think it is the opposite. I always play looser in tournaments than cash games because no matter how many donkey moves I make I can only lose my original buy in. I will make ridiculous plays in tournaments.. like crazy all in bluffs that I would never make in cash games. I also play with a lot less fear in tournaments, especially in the early stages. For me cash games are more about just sitting and waiting for someone to join the table that is on serious tilt and to just play ABC poker against them. In cash games you can go on major tilt and move up in limits and blow your entire bank roll really fast but this is unlikely to happen as often in tournament play . In tournaments you can play crazy to blow off some steam if you want and it won't kill you. My play in cash games is pretty consistent but my tournament play varies based on my mood... sometimes I just feel like playing like a donkey and sucking out on everyone. It is fun to register for a $2 tournament and play like a retard when u are pissed at the world.

[phosphorescence]

simple: more fish in tournaments.

[C4R15]

Thanks for your advice all of you, except the rigged one. Have heard that story to many times. Think i'll just have to keep on the tourneys.

[dew12109]

Sorry, guess I should have ended my post with [/sarcasm] so people would realize.

[liladypokerpro]

I knew it was sarcasm, fwiw... Everyone's always gotta be so damned nitty LOL [/joke]

Anyway, back to the OP...

It would also help to know what stakes you play with regard to your cash games vs. your tournaments. Just since everyone else has added all other advice possible, it would matter whether or not you have stepped out of your comfort zone recently... perhaps moved up or down levels? It's also good to note that not all poker players will be good at every aspect of the game, or variation for that matter. Don't lose heart. You may find that you are just one of those people who happens to generally be good at one thing vs. the other.

[whitenight]

I just want to add this.

Two nights ago, I was waiting for a tourney to start, and had twenty minutes to spare. Like yourself (the OP), I too am cash positive in sit and goes and tourneys, but negative in cash games. So I resolved to give them up some months ago; And since then have shared the same query as yours...

Anyway, given the temptation of "cash game relapse", I looked up a cash table with a high vpip and... observed. I quickly noted three players from Spain on that table. So I thought, nah... I think I'll try another one. And the next? two from Russia, one from Ukraine. So I tried again, and I found a 9 table with 4 people from Holland on it. And I thought, wait a minute, surely I can find one table where the nationalities are better mixed than these!? Needless to say, I soon simply gave up, before my tourney started and just waited for that instead.

Coincidence - many would argue. But I'd rather err on the side of caution and suggest as follows.

The problem, with cash games *online*, is arguably this: collusion among friends.

If there are nine on the table and 30% of that table know what their friends are holding, then unsuspecting others will be at a disadvantage. A flush draw becomes that bit more tempting when they know that their frineds hold nothing of your suit for instance. Online collusion, I believe is the reason why I have had such poor success on the online cash tables as opposed to large s&g's/mtts: It's just too easy for a bunch of friends to sit down at a small cash table, splash money around to build its vpip (the bait) and wait for the fish to swim in, while assuming its safe territory in which to play.

I believe that the online rooms should do a lot more to monitor what IP addresses are appearing repeatedly together at the same tables, and automatically (proactively) block persons from joining a cash table if their IP matches another's on that table where the two played previously more than once in the past three months or so. Albeit, many would argue that that would be too hard a step to take. The current (retroactive) system is just too open to abuse.

[deathcard71]

Originally Posted by whitenight The problem, with cash games *online*, is arguably this: collusion among friends.

sure cheating is possible in any form of poker but it's not the reason OP loses in cash games.
cash games require a different strategy then SnG's to be successful.

best to stick with the game your beating, or learn cash game strategy.

[whitenight]

"best to stick with the game your beating, or learn cash game strategy. "

Hmmm might that assume that I know nothing of cash game strategy compared to that of tournaments?

I'll take it you didn't exactly mean it that way, as it would be quite a presumption. Nonetheless I don't disagree with you insofar as cheating is indeed prevalent in all forms of poker. It's the ease by which it can be conducted on the *online* cash tables with which I take issue; And the fact that the poker rooms are all too happy to investigate retroactively rather than take a more proactive/aggressive approach to deter collusion. Yes, I think the buddy system is open to abuse. Or at the very least, persons should be freely given the information on any table just how many of the players have played together previously and in what frequency and type of games (much the same way as one can see avg potsize percentages etc.). This is data which could be easily submitted by the poker rooms. Then persons can make their own minds up whether the risk of collusion is high or not.

Someone else mentioned to me that I should still play cash games online but concentrate on heads up *if* I continue to be worried by collusion among buddies. I accept that that's a good suggestion and compromise (albeit heads up play is of course an altogether different animal to normal 6 or 9 cash ring games etc).

[dew12109]

Originally Posted by whitenight I believe that the online rooms should do a lot more to monitor what IP addresses are appearing repeatedly together at the same tables, and automatically (proactively) block persons from joining a cash table if their IP matches another's on that table where the two played previously more than once in the past three months or so. Albeit, many would argue that that would be too hard a step to take. The current (retroactive) system is just too open to abuse.

So much for playing with any regulars LOL... your post is absurd. I've played with the same people at freaking $0.05/$0.10 tables on numerous occassions (to the point that almost every day I recognize names of people/have over 500 hands recorded from playing with these people and I just started playing regularly at FTP on the 11th of June.). There are regulars who 12-16 table during happy hour, and it seems that most of the time, during happy hour a few of them pop up on one of my 4-6 tables. If you want to talk about ruining online poker, go ahead and do this.

If you don't know this already, I will note that they already block people coming from the same IP address at the same tables. Also, I play against the same "villain" online regularly. Villain is one of my buddies, and he is pretty much the main reason I play online poker. We play together ALL the time, but this doesn't mean we are colluding. We play harder against each other than we play against other people.

I think if you are going to stop joining tables because a few of the same nationalities are sitting at the same table, you should also observe people from "The United States" because damn there are a lot of them sitting together regularly.

Also, if you don't know this, friends can register for the same SNG's as well. I know it's a stretch of the imagination, but collusion just as easily happens in SNG's as it does at cash tables. Clearly the only feasible reason for poor cash game results vs. SNG's is that collusion occurs.

[deathcard71]

Originally Posted by whitenight "best to stick with the game your beating, or learn cash game strategy. " Hmmm might that assume that I know nothing of cash game strategy compared to that of tournaments?

most of my post was meant for OP (original post). just the first half of the first sentence was responding to the quote. sry for the confusion.

[dew12109]

It wasn't confusing, whitenight was just being too presumptuous to notice "but it's not the reason OP loses in cash games" the subject of your post.

[C4R15]

I totally agree on the IP address, but then again how can you police it. I work away alot and i have mobile broadband. My daughter plays on the same site as me, but her bankroll is so much lower than mine that we don't play on the same tables. I'll admit i do give her advice on her tables, but it's not worth me dropping down to her level to make it profitable enough. The way she's going i'm sure she'll over take me, what with a younger mind and a much more aggressive nature than me. She sets her mind on something and nothing will stop her. We've played against each other occasinally and she beats me hands down. I've really got to let her know who prevides her with the money to play.

[phosphorescence]

Originally Posted by whitenight I just want to add this. Two nights ago, I was waiting for a tourney to start, and had twenty minutes to spare. Like yourself (the OP), I too am cash positive in sit and goes and tourneys, but negative in cash games. So I resolved to give them up some months ago; And since then have shared the same query as yours... Anyway, given the temptation of "cash game relapse", I looked up a cash table with a high vpip and... observed. I quickly noted three players from Spain on that table. So I thought, nah... I think I'll try another one. And the next? two from Russia, one from Ukraine. So I tried again, and I found a 9 table with 4 people from Holland on it. And I thought, wait a minute, surely I can find one table where the nationalities are better mixed than these!? Needless to say, I soon simply gave up, before my tourney started and just waited for that instead. Coincidence - many would argue. But I'd rather err on the side of caution and suggest as follows. The problem, with cash games *online*, is arguably this: collusion among friends. If there are nine on the table and 30% of that table know what their friends are holding, then unsuspecting others will be at a disadvantage. A flush draw becomes that bit more tempting when they know that their frineds hold nothing of your suit for instance. Online collusion, I believe is the reason why I have had such poor success on the online cash tables as opposed to large s&g's/mtts: It's just too easy for a bunch of friends to sit down at a small cash table, splash money around to build its vpip (the bait) and wait for the fish to swim in, while assuming its safe territory in which to play. I believe that the online rooms should do a lot more to monitor what IP addresses are appearing repeatedly together at the same tables, and automatically (proactively) block persons from joining a cash table if their IP matches another's on that table where the two played previously more than once in the past three months or so. Albeit, many would argue that that would be too hard a step to take. The current (retroactive) system is just too open to abuse.

[/sarcasm] ?

seriously? 'oh, i can't beat cash games, therefore it must be because everyone's colluding.'
just because people are from the same country doesn't mean they know each other.

[whitenight]

Good point CR415. I'm not saying it's an easy one to solve just that there are steps which the rooms should be taking to make it easier for the rest of us honest players. And despite what the naysayers are arguing there definitely is collusion on a number of the cash tables as it's just too easy to load up MSN, Skype etc and discuss your cards with your "buddies".

Albeit, it's hard to quantify just how much of a problem it is, but don't you agree that the rooms should be more proactive in their taking out the colluders, rather than retroactive - as they are continuing to be? Surely we should have more information on who is playing with who and how often - IF we want it and BEFORE we make the decision to play on any given cash table. By the time we've lost to colluders, it's often too late; and, do the sites *really* want to know once they've made their rake?

[frecklers]

Originally Posted by C4R15 Can anyone explain why i can win in sit n go tournaments, but my cash game is terrible. I think i'll just have to stick to the tourneys. If i call or raise in cash games i always get caught by someones rags catching two pair or trips, where as in tourneys my hand holds up.

The two games are entirely different and I would not differentiate between TOURNAMENTS and RING Games in this respect, merely SnG's and Deeper stacked games.

Generally SnG strategy would not see a decent player calling with small pocket pairs to hit a set in fact you are advised to dump small pairs in the most part. When the poorer players do, then most of the time they are unlikely to have Implied odds to do so (ideally they need 15-1 + going in to the flop). With that in mind, even when your AA does get cracked by a set in an SnG in effect it doesn't hurt you over the long term, simply because the odds are working in your favour and against the set miners.

The same can be said for suited connectors, suited Aces and Broadway type hands.

When you are deeper stacked, better players are not necessarily worried whether or not you appear strong pre flop. in fact, your pre flop strength is a good reason for them to come along for the ride with a view to stacking you. In deeper stacked games you need to be much better post flop player, whereas SnG is essentially about making pre flop decisions, particularly in the latter stages.

Just to give you an extract from NLHE Theory and Practice (Sklansky), which I think sums up the difference.

" In deep stack no limit, preflop hands derive most of their value from how well they extract money after the flop from your opponents. Comparing hands based upon how often they win a showdown or their poker hand rank is worse than worthless"

When we are referring to SnG's, you would almost never consider entering the pot without a well ranked hand and you would be a losing SnG player if you did so on a regular basis.

I hope this is of some use