Wrong or Right

[imrafa20]

Your hand: 5c 4c

You have $260 in a shorthanded $0.5-$1 cash game when you get 5c 4c on the button. The tight-passive UTG player raises to $4 (his standard bet being $3 otherwise) with $100 behind, and a loose-passive player in seat five calls, as do you, since you think that a really good flop will give you great chances against a probably AA-QQ from UTG. The blinds get out of the way.

The flop comes 2d 6h 7h - good for you. UTG bets pot, $12. You're now almost completely sure that he's got at least QQ.

Seat 5 folds and you call with your open-ended straight draw, thinking that you have good chances of getting your opponent all-in, should you catch a straight on the turn. Right or wrong?

[irishpkr]

Finally a post with some readable layout, so I'll dive right in here

So pot is ~$12 pre, now its $24, and we have to call $12 to see the turn. So we have 8outs, we'll hit on the turn roughly 17%, something like 4.2 to 1, cba to do maths :P

So we're being offered 2 to 1 to call, but we need 4.2 to 1 to call. So you need to make 4.2x12=$50.4 to make this profitable. There is already $24 in the pot, thus to breakeven we need to get roughly $26 more from the villain if we hit the straight. Its pretty safe to assume that we're get at least that much, as our hand is quite well disguised, and he'll have a very tough time folding QQ+ here. So yeah its fine to call.

[Vito_Nuccio]

Originally Posted by imrafa20 Your hand: 5c 4c The tight-passive UTG player raises to $4 (his standard bet being $3 otherwise) with $100 behind, and a loose-passive player in seat five calls, as do you, since you think that a really good flop will give you great chances against a probably AA-QQ from UTG.

I belive the key here is you missed your initial read/feeling. Under the gun 4X raise from tight-passive player usually equals big hand, an easy fold with 54c. Yes you have the cards to crack a monster, but even after this flop the best you have is a draw. Even a tight player is not folding a big pair on this flop. Chasing draws is not the best way to make money in the long run.

Thanks,

[iceveins0901]

Originally Posted by irishpkr Finally a post with some readable layout, so I'll dive right in here So pot is ~$12 pre, now its $24, and we have to call $12 to see the turn. So we have 8outs, we'll hit on the turn roughly 17%, something like 4.2 to 1, cba to do maths :P So we're being offered 2 to 1 to call, but we need 4.2 to 1 to call. So you need to make 4.2x12=$50.4 to make this profitable. There is already $24 in the pot, thus to breakeven we need to get roughly $26 more from the villain if we hit the straight. Its pretty safe to assume that we're get at least that much, as our hand is quite well disguised, and he'll have a very tough time folding QQ+ here. So yeah its fine to call.

to make your statement correct irish, wouldnt you magically need $26 more in the pot, without you adding anything?

now, I am not sure how to calculate your hand with both the turn and river to come, but your turn immediate odds are 39 to 8, or 4.875 to 1, which would mean for the turn only, you would want $58.5 already in the pot in order to call $12.

for a rough guess, I would think that since you have two chances to hit your straight, you can almost cut your odds in half, bringing it from 4.875 to 1, to ~2.45 to 1, which would mean you would want $29 in the pot in order to call the flop bet of 12. based strictly on that, you are not getting sufficient odds so fold.

based on your opponent and your read of them, you think they will stack off with QQ, I am not sure how to calculate implied odds, but they do increase your odds for making the call. the implied odds probably make this an ok call on the flop.

should you miss on the turn, your hand is pretty much dead.

[PointerJake]

Basically what your saying is that you know your oppenent has QQ or better. You have a draw with 17% chance to win and your wondering if you should chase or not. This is a classic donkey call, so if you like them odds make the call. For me I lay it down everytime; unless I think he only has overs. Then I raise after the flop bet. But 90% of time i fold it there.

[liladypokerpro]

54??......oh, I know, because it's soooooted, am I right or wrong? LOL

Not good, not even remotely...the odds don't favor your urge to chase...let it go.

Think of it this way...what if (just say "what if") your opponent is actually holding Ah Kh, and has a four flush right now, just on the flop....

How would your straight look if the next card that made it for you on the board was a heart....not too good....

[gamer4life27]

Ok, I was reading this, and re-reading this, and tried to make it make sence in my mind, but it just didn't. Why would just an open ended straight draw be good for you? That means you HAVE to catch those cards in order for you to win the hand. If he even has over cards (probably A K - A J of hearts), you have to catch cards in order for you to win. Either way, you are behind in the hand.

A good way to figure out percentages, is take how many outs you have. In this case, lets say he doesn't have a flush draw, but an over pair. You have roughly 8 outs. So you take your outs, and how many cards are left to come (this usually only works on 4th and 5th streets). So on the flop, theres two cards to come, and you have 8 outs. You multiply 8 * 2 to get 16. Multiply that by two also (the number of cards to come), and you get 32. Add a few more points (usually between 1-6) to get your percentage. So in this case, I would say your about a 35% underdog.

Now, if you change his hole cards from pocket cards, to two overs (like As Ks, with no flush draw), then it's virtually a coin flip. So you are 50% to win or lose this hand (more like 49.7% underdog, but lets round up.) But in these cases, is it really a good idea to calla POT sized bet? If you think it is, then by all means call. Just don't make it a habbit. Like the old poker saying goes, never call off your chips with a draw. It's either raise some of the time, or fold it.

Bty, how did the hand play out for you?